Requests for Comment/Miraheze official QQ groups or channel

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

There is some consensus here for there to be a Miraheze QQ chat platform that would be more accessible to Chinese domiciled users, with an approximate 70-75% relative support ratio of those that have expressed either supportive, neutral/abstaining, or opposing views. However, given the limited global community volunteer pool (Stewards, SRE, and Trust and Safety) we do have, making this an official Miraheze QQ channel is blocked/stalled on the count of no volunteers able to "staff" the platform. As noted by several users, there's nothing stopping the proponent from creating an unofficial Chinese Miraheze user QQ support platform, supported by experienced and dual language Chinese and English speaking Miraheze volunteers who can serve as mediators for unilingual Miraheze users unable to communicate effectively with predominantly English speaking official community volunteers. While it won't necessarily reduce the backlog, as Agent Isai notes, it could very likely help to improve the workflow for Miraheze volunteers by having Chinese community support volunteers with a good grasp of the English language able to speak effectively with the global volunteers. That being said, the creation of an unofficial Miraheze QQ chat platform for Chinese speaking Miraheze users, or potential users, really could've been done without this RfC. Taking the longer term view, though, what this RfC should do is help to inform our current practices to make Miraheze more accessible to Chinese users. This could be manifested in several ways, such a wiki creator reform RfC I'm currently drafting to make the wiki creator permission more accessible for multilingual and non-English speaking users, while at the same time providing greater discretion in Stewards' supervisory responsibility for wiki creators, or it could manifest itself in a potential rethink to our approach to the CAPTCHA we're currently using and/or our global abuse filters. The bottom line is, this was really a community discussion pointing exercise that sought to identify issues and inform future solutions over the course of the next year and beyond. Dmehus (talk) 04:51, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

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As one of the world's best known wiki farms, Miraheze also has a large number of visitors from mainland China, but they have a problem in that they cannot register an account and wiki creators cannot use Discord or IRC with recaptcha as a captcha to communicate with Miraheze officials, which greatly hinders the development of Miraheze in mainland China. So I suggest that Miraheze could set up an official (or semi-official) channel or a number of official (or semi-official) group chats on QQ, which would greatly help mainland Chinese visitors to participate in Miraheze. 城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 13:41, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Proposal 1: PROPOSAL NAME HERE

PROPOSAL CONTENT HERE 城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 13:41, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Support

1.  Strong support as proposer. 城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 13:41, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
2.  Support Seems like a good way to enable more people to use Miraheze Bugambilia (talk) 15:31, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
3.  Support For the same reason.滑稽金苹果 (talk)
4.  Support. However I don't think it's the best solution to Community noticeboard/Archive 29#Follow-up: About the reCaptcha issue in mainland China. --沈澄心 (talk) 10:14, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Abstain/Neutral

1. I must respectively disagree with Agent Isai's non-verified claim that Tencent is more of a privacy risk than, say, Facebook or even Discord, or that it logs any more information than the former two. Thus, there's not really a compelling reason to oppose, but my main reason why I can't support, either, is that another platform would require additional volunteer time commitment to monitor and support, and I wouldn't want to see only one volunteer monitoring the QQ Miraheze platform. That would be a lot of pressure for that volunteer. I believe, however, these concerns are valid, but there are other options. For example, we could look at adapting or adding MirahezeMagic global interface messages that instruct users who are unable to register to e-mail the applicable team(s) in order to complete a request form. We could look at not applying no open proxies policy to IRC channels, as it's never had a community discussion to implement. It has just been accepted by Stewards, together with their SRE colleagues, who moderate and administer that platform, based upon a reasonable request from the MirahezeBots team. We could look at some other option, too. Dmehus (talk) 18:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

   @Dmehus: According to the Constitution of the People's Republic of China, unless criminal cases are involved, no state organ has the right to investigate individuals' chat records and other private information, and as long as Tencent's payment services are not used, then the only personal information recorded is the phone number, which was leaked out by Facebook long ago--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 00:40, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   Fandom also has an official QQ group, and there are quite a few of them --城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 00:49, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   That's true, and as I said, my concern isn't really QQ being a privacy risk. Would I use it? Probably yes, if I had a compelling need to use it. My main reason precluding me from supporting this request is who would "staff" the channel? Even if we get one Miraheze community volunteer, I don't think it's fair to ask one community volunteer to be that sole representative in the Miraheze QQ channel. Perhaps you could create an unofficial Miraheze QQ channel with fellow Chinese users, and forward account creation requests or IRC IP block exemption requests to stewardsmiraheze.org every few days or even once a week? Dmehus (talk) 00:54, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   Efficiency is too low, far below normal, and people tend to trust officials more.城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 01:27, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

2.  Neutral per Dmehus  Anpang📨  07:06, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose

1.  Strongest oppose I strongly oppose against this group. Although I am a Chinese speaker, I could always help and lack of Chinese speaking volunteer or the privacy risk. It is because that QQ actually labelled Malaysia population of 32.7 Million and most of Southeast Asia country (except Singapore and Brunei which all total around 649103066 people) as "Spam" and "Unsafe". Although Southeast Asia country might be poor and there might be some spammer, hacker and bot, it is no reason to block everyone in the region off it platform. (Also bot and hacker from Russia and China is more then us) It is not fair for us. Also by blocking, you also blocked most Chinese and English speaker off it's platform. If it only allow "rich" and "first world country" in, then I strongly don't recommended Miraheze have one on QQ. Miraheze is for everyone and could be used by anyone. Due to blocking most of the population of Southeast Asia with 3 largest Chinese speaking group (Malaysia, Indonesia is blocked but Singapore aren't), there are very less Chinese speaking volunteer could help out with the QQ group. Jst Tan

   According to documents disclosed by icann, the NSA is using bots to infiltrate public opinion in China, the first platform for infiltration is Weibo, the second is QQ. and as far as I know, many of them are registered with Southeast Asian phone numbers (not sure of the authenticity), there is one to say, QQ is not doing a good job on this matter--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 05:55, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   As far as I concern, the NSA is under the US government, even if it is using bots that is registered with Southeast Asian phone number, it is nonsense to mark everyone in the 3rd most population region as spam. (Also don't mention that China is doing the same to the world too) They should take a different approach of blocking bots individually instead of what they doing now. -- [[User:Jst Tan:Jst Tan}} 06:03, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   我就直接用中文聊吧，美西的“舆论渗透”就是个笑话，我还被指控为“在维基百科推进中国政府目标的渗透人员”，然而我非但没从政府拿过一分钱，年年还得给政府缴税，我连个共青团员都不是，还“渗透”，而且那些媒体也没帮我拿到钱啊。自从那件事以后，我对BBC和VOA的可靠性打了一个巨大的问号。--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 06:07, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   It actually doesn't matter to this proposal. --Jst Tan

   所以阁下为什么要提呢？--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 12:00, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

2.  Strong oppose I do not feel comfortable supporting this RfC at this moment. As I said in my main point, we do not have enough trusted volunteers who can speak Chinese and moderate this potential group efficiently. I would not feel comfortable with an absolute stranger who has no history at all with Miraheze being moderator of these communities and much less would I feel comfortable with the RfC initiator being moderator due to recent brawls regarding politics on the Discord server which culminated in multiple 5-day kickbans for many users just a few days ago (I also have proof that some have evaded this ban which would make me even less comfortable with that). With that being said, I also fear potential political brawls that could occur and incivility due to that, in contravention of our global Code of Conduct. Additionally, I find the claim that this would reduce Steward/SRE/T&S wait times for Chinese users to be absolutely ludicrous. Whether the user speaks English, Chinese or Portuguese, the wait times will all be the same. If you've seen our discussions on IRC/Discord, you will know well that there already is a backlog for all of these departments so adding yet another layer users have to go through in order to speak to a global official is not only counterproductive and inefficient but also insecure as these middlemen could be told by naïve users some personal information and could use that to their advantage while forwarding messages to global officials. Also, I do not think we can reasonably be compared to Fandom. Fandom has a team of trusted and NDA'd volunteers who manage the group while we lack these sorts of volunteers. As such, until we have a team of trusted users to moderate a potential QQ server, I must strongly oppose. Agent Isai ^{Talk to me!} 03:53, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Comments

1. I'm not exactly comfortable with this, yet. An official Miraheze group would require that trusted users patrol the chat and we lack trusted users in the Chinese language which would make it difficult to monitor the chat to ensure the Code of Conduct is being upheld. Now, if we had moderators outside of China try to moderate the chat, a real privacy concern could potentially exist. Tencent doesn't exactly have the best reputation in privacy and logs an excessive amount of information from it's users in the form of cookies. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with it installed on my device and I feel others outside of China may not either. Just my two cents but I don't particularly support this, primarily due to the first point. Agent Isai ^{Talk to me!} 15:44, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

   @Agent Isai: See above for my answer to Dmehus' query, as long as you don't use the game and payment business, then Tencent only has your phone number and not your passport number or address, and your phone number has long been leaked by Facebook, you can find Chinese speaking users from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia or even the world, and I know several of them who have activities in Miraheze Chinese Wikipedians. Then again you should not have any of your phones using Tencent SDK (as this is not commonly used in Europe and the US).--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 00:47, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   See my proposed alternative solution of an unofficial Miraheze QQ channel maintained by you and fellow Chinese users. That may just well work. Dmehus (talk) 00:55, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   QQ is available in English, and as far as I know User:開拓者 will be in Chinese.If the email is unofficial and then forwarded, the workload will increase and applicants will have to wait longer due to the time difference, up to two days if forwarding is done daily.--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 01:32, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   Well, either way, they could well be waiting a couple days, whether it's an official group or not. As an official group with potentially only Chinese speaking volunteer, the backlog will likely be even longer than with the unofficial group you and your cohort maintain and translate and forward to Stewards and Global Sysops to action. Dmehus (talk) 01:55, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   How about a semi-official one?--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 02:01, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   Due to my personal problems at the moment, if it was completely unofficial then it would take longer, so at least someone from Miraheze would be needed to manage the account build on my behalf--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 02:05, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   My main concern is not privacy but rather the fact that we lack trusted volunteers who speak Chinese. That would be a deterrent for now for a support from my part for an official QQ group until we have a few trusted volunteers who can speak Chinese at a conversational level and who can keep an eye on the group. Agent Isai ^{Talk to me!} 01:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   I going to dismiss @城市酸儒文人挖坑: theory, China gov could ask for user information without court request. China companies are required to give user important information at a moment notice. you can find Chinese speaking users from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, yes, there a high Chinese speaking population in Malaysia but there won't be any that could be in QQ group if it blocked Malaysian phone number (I tested both time sometimes ago on mobile) for signing up. Miraheze is for everyone and could be used by anyone. Jst Tan

   In fact, the government has no authority, the constitution and the law state that only public security, state security, prosecutors and courts can access personal information when investigating criminal cases, and how many times have your mobile phone numbers been leaked by Facebook? As long as you don't play Tencent's Chinese version of the game, don't use WeChat Pay or QQ Wallet, and only have a mobile phone number in front of Tencent, what can this mobile phone number do to you? Is it possible that Tencent keeps calling you in the middle of the night? The company's main business is to provide a wide range of products and services to the public. Also, mail.com has always banned IPs from mainland China, and Google requires a bug to bypass Google's system to register using a Chinese mobile phone number.--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 06:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

   Although Facebook might leak phone number many times due to their bad security, for some information, it doesn't leak. Sure, phone number might do nothing to me but some might found it as a privacy risk. While for mail.com and Google, there also been many bots, hacker and etc from China that had been spamming websites across the world. Also China banned those platform too so if they doesn't allow IP from China, it not a big deal since even if they allow, you needed a VPN to use those services too. China hackers had been hacking sites from all over the world for money. But they are originated from China so they blocked those IP. Google is banned in China so how could an user with China phone number trying to sign up? In most circumstances, it might be hacker or a bot so it blocked it. I see no reasons that this sound unreasonable. While for QQ, it is not us (Southeast Asia people) who currently doing it, it is the US gov. You couldn't just ban everyone in Southeast Asia for what US is doing. We are innocent people at least that got banned for no reasons. -- Jst Tan

   As I know,the last time Chinese hackers haking website is hacking Whitehousein 2001 because of the US Air Force got in to Chinese air and the U.S. government did not make any compensation afterwards, but only made a false apology. And your government still bans communism, and your country has extradited two North Korean citizens to the US--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 11:57, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Or use Kaiheila开黑啦？

1. @Dmehus:@Jst Tan:@Agent Isai:@滑稽金苹果:@ApexAgunomu:I've just checked, the recent infiltration of public opinion against China is very frequent and far beyond historical levels, so Tencent should have banned the registration of mobile phone numbers from regions other than the territory defined by the constitution of the People's Republic of China (including Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan), so Jst Tan's situation should not be an exception, I suggest instead planning to set up an official (or semi-official) server at 开黑啦, the advantage is that there are no regional restrictions, the disadvantage is There is no open source bot script. Khehela currently supports registration on the better known social networks in mainland China, as well as mobile phone number registration--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 11:57, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@Dmehus:the kaiheila sever invite.Can add it into the Main Page?--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 02:13, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I also need official volunteers in for the interwiki requests--城市酸儒文人挖坑 (talk) 02:15, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section