Requests for Comment/Alternatives For Current Loginwiki

I’ve created this RfC following input from other users about the current state of. Some users have expressed a desire to not have global user pages based off Login, because of the name and externality from Meta. As such, I’ve created an RfC to address these concerns and see what can be done to either a) improve ‘s name or b) remove it entirely and/or re-assign its focus.

Proposal 1: Combine Login With Meta
. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contribs • global • rights) 20:01, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

This proposal would be to combine  and , which would result in all new checkusers and logins being registered to Meta. Instead of having an account on Login automatically, it would change the default wiki to Meta. Global user pages would also be shifted to Meta, and as such override current local Meta user pages. When combined,  would then be deleted. This would implement what is currently used at the Wikipedia Foundation, where Meta-Wiki is the hub.

Support

 * 1)  The WMF’s system works well, I don’t see why it can’t be like that for Miraheze. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contribs • global • rights) 14:35, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * What is being proposed here isn't exactly like the WMF system. While the WMF may use GUP on Meta, they do have a loginwiki for logins. The proposal above proposes that loginwiki is deleted. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 19:15, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  This does not make any sense from a technical standpoint. Wikimedia also has a loginwiki (login.wikimedia.org) so we do it the same way. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 14:42, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  Even apart from a global user pages, loginwiki is used for technical purposes related to login. — Chrs (talk) 14:59, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 3)  I really don't see a good enough rationale to justify this. Either way, merging them would be quite complex and time consuming for the SRE team and we've also always had this setup because that's how Wikimedia does it and to my knowledge they're the only other wiki farm that uses CentralAuth. The GUP on Meta debate is separate IMO and shouldn't have been merged with the other proposal. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 15:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * No, Wikimedia uses Meta for global user pages, with editing on loginwiki being strictly locked and having almost no extensions. That's why it's always been a problem since day one for the editing doors on loginwiki to be wide open and loads of extensions for use on userpages. Wikimedia has never had global user pages on loginwiki. Naleksuh (talk) 16:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I know, I didn't say that. My issue is that this proposal wants to completely remove loginwiki, not that it wants to move GUP to Meta. There's two parts to this proposal (instead of there being two proposals) and I strongly oppose the part that says we should remove loginwiki, I didn't make any comments about the GUP part. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 19:12, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 1)  I'm sorry, but I think this idea is TERRIBLE! If we were to remove it entirely, that would screw up Miraheze. I'm sorry, but this idea is absolutely trash, and would most likely fall flat on its face. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 18:16, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  per MacFan and DMM. --Routhwick (talk) 19:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Proposal 1 Real : Combine Login With Meta, but really
This was based on BrandonWM's misunderstanding that loginwiki is only for global user pages, missing the point of the central login wiki. This proposes moving global user pages to Meta, and just keeping login wiki for logins.

Oppose

 * 1) If they are going to be moved, they should be moved really. By now, most of the damage is done as the database is tarnished. I could see resetting the database as 2 provides, but not just deleting and doing nothing else (no login wiki then) and not just doing nothing (no purpose in any of this, then) Naleksuh (talk) 19:26, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  This literally misses the point of the loginwiki's functions. Isn't it supposed to serve as a global wiki? --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 20:22, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 3)  --  Bukkit  [ cetacean needed ] 21:58, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 4)  A solution in search of a problem, to be sure, but also global user pages are a global function, so I'd have concerns about locally elected Meta administrators being able to use a local mop and bucket with global effects, essentially. Dmehus (talk) 01:03, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * In my own personal view of this RfC, this looks like an attempt to shutdown the, showing a bit of incompetency on the nominator's part. I'm not saying that the nominator is an incompetent fool, but the way this RfC is currently conveying makes it out like it's a problem, when really, it's there for global purposes. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 10:51, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) . This is out of scope. Cigaryno (talk) 18:05, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Proposal 2: Create A Global UserPage-Focused Wiki
This proposal would be to create an entirely new, global user page-focused wiki. That wiki would be solely for GUP editing. As such,  would become a no-editing environment, and would be used for operations (checkuser, renames, etc.).

Support

 * 1)  I’d be fine with this. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 14:42, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) When I suggested this, I wanted to reset the database for loginwiki as by now the damage is done, with loginwiki's user page assets being transferred to a wiki specifically for hosting global user pages (probably globaluserpagewiki or similar). Naleksuh (talk) 16:54, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 3)  as nominator. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contribs • global • rights) 19:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 4)  loginwiki is a SRE-controlled technical wiki. Ideally it shouldn't be used for any community functions, including global user pages. Universal Omega (talk) 21:01, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 5)    is there for technical reasons, so it doesn’t make sense that it would be used for non-login related things. --  Bukkit  [ cetacean needed ] 22:13, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 6)   This is an alternative to other proposals asking to remove loginwiki, and also solve this issues currently. Cheers, Matttest (talk | contribs) 13:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1)  No vote on this because I’ve already supported #1 and opposed #3. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contribs • global • rights) 14:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Per my oppose in Proposal 1. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 15:28, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  This is strictly a bad idea, I'm afraid. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 18:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Do you have any explanation as of why? I could just say "This is strictly a good idea, I'm afraid." Naleksuh (talk) 19:02, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You clearly didn't read my reason below or above, did you? I'll paraphrase it for you, so you won't resort to incompetent behavior or any nonsensical comebacks against my reasons for opposing this utterly ridiculous RfC that will go nowhere. First off, if we were to entirely merge the  with , that would possibly cause issues for everyone, and would probably screw up this wiki farm. And secondly, what BrandonWM has proposed here is very problematic, especially since the loginwiki is meant to stay right where it is for global reasons. I'm not about to regurgitate my 2nd reason from my first reason. So, there you go. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 19:24, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * is staying, it’s just proposing a new wiki so that  keeps it’s intended scope of SUL, and not host non-login related actions. --  Bukkit  [ cetacean needed ] 22:13, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Exactly why I think this RfC poses a threat to the future of the . --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 10:47, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 1)  per
 * 2)  I would've strongly opposed Proposal 1, and while I suppose this is the not a terrible option, this feels like a solution in search of a problem. Put another way, we already have a Loginwiki that includes the ability to create global user pages. There are no "thou must not use a login wiki for any other purpose than central user login coordination" rules in the CentralAuth extension or MediaWiki software. Dmehus (talk) 00:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Comments

 * What are the technical or community problems with the way the current arrangement works? Ie, what does the global login page feature do to subvert the operation of loginwiki? We already have satellite wiki bloat and we really don't need to add more one-trick wikis if the need is not clear in the first place. The only rationale I have seen is pointing to Wikimedia convention, which we draw upon but do not depend upon, and the fact it's SRE operated, in which case perhaps we can simply work with SRE to streamline how it works so the minor operational confusion that exists now can be fixed. --Raidarr (talk) 13:25, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Proposal 3: Keep Login Same And Rename
. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contribs • global • rights) 20:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

This proposal would be to rename  entirely to   or. There isn’t much to this proposal except to rename.

Abstain

 * 1)  This isn’t hard to do, but no sure if we really want to do it. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 14:42, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Seems like it won’t do much, if I’m being fully honest. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contribs • global • rights) 14:37, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  No good rationale for this. — Chrs (talk) 14:59, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 3)  The wiki is mainly used for technical reasons but additionally gives users the possibility to use GUP. There might be users who find that confusing or annoying but I haven't heard of such complaints personally and feel like naming doesn't do much. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 15:28, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 4)  Do I really need to explain why? Do I? I think it should be obvious why I opposed. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 18:19, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Comments

 * 1) This is absolutely absurd to get rid of the  . I'm concerned about this type of move, because many users go to the loginwiki to make GlobalUser pages. 9 times out of 10, this will likely backfire in the long-run. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 19:16, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * literally the entire point. They shouldn’t be on loginwiki for GUP. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contribs • global • rights) 19:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, but that's the problem. We're not going to try copying Wikimedia's loginwiki whatsoever. I think it's fine just the way it is. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 20:00, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It would create all kinds of security issues. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contribs • global • rights) 20:04, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Proposal 4 Have local bureaucrats and sysops on login wiki to keep things tidy
This proposal is basically elect local admins and bureaucrats to keep things tidy. Could also be that we just allow meta admins to have rights on login wiki as well as have elections. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 20:01, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Support

 * 1)  I wouldn't mind this at all, as long as it is consistent. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 20:20, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  as proposer. This seems like the best and easiest option. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 20:44, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 3)   generally has a good ear on things and if he thinks this is the best path, I’m inclined to support him. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contribs • global • rights) 20:54, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 4)  I do like this idea. Universal Omega (talk) 21:02, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 5)  I would rather we simply leave things as they are, but if we're going to make a change then this one is the least objectionable to me. Sario528 (talk) 21:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) This doesn't solve the issues with login wiki. It doesn't solve the name being misleading, or the misuse of a login wiki. In fact, this would only make things worse as things into login dig further. Instead, let's focus on moving global user pages out and have sysops/crats there. Then, there won't be a need for sysops as it's readonly. That said, I might support Stewards having permanent CheckUser on loginwiki, rather than adding and removing constantly (Wikimedia does this) Naleksuh (talk) 20:20, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  per Naleksuh

Comments

 * loginwiki is a SRE-managed wiki and local rights will not be given out to turn this into a community wiki - it is for technical purposes only and won’t be handed over by SRE to the community so this proposal is moot even if it passes as no local rights will be issued on the basis of this proposal. (Comment made in capacity of an EM for SRE.) John (talk) 21:37, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I mean, what good would this do if we removed the  from this platform? That's like resorting to destroying the values of the Wikimedia Foundation all because someone wanted to change one little thing about the wiki(s). --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 16:19, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Questions/Comments

 * 1) Apparently, the mindset of the nominator is like "Fuck the , let's get rid of it, so it can magically make the other users happy." I'm sorry , but I don't think it works like that. We need the loginwiki for purposes like CheckUser data, amongst other things that I can't immediately list from the back of my own head. It would just screw up Miraheze as a whole. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 18:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * No one suggested removing it. Naleksuh (talk) 19:08, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This suggests that you didn't read Proposal 1. It explicitly says "When combined, loginwiki would then be deleted." Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 19:13, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * What????? I thought they meant deleted and recreated. Also, that is NOT what is currently used on Wikimedia. https://login.wikimedia.org Naleksuh (talk) 19:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I will add that I intended to put recreate but must’ve forgotten to add that. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contribs • global • rights) 19:43, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This RfC is doomed for failure anyhow. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 10:43, 29 June 2022 (UTC)