Requests for Comment/Endorsement of Meta conventions

Initiator comment: The purpose of this Request for Comment aimed at Meta is to codify certain principles and conventions that have been applied here. The reason why this codification is necessary is because of the disputes that have taken place at different times and in different places about whether these rules are indeed 'convention' or not. To some (including myself) these rules seem logical and as some would say a no-brainer but clearly the necessity for this Request for Comment arises because some others do not think that these rules are obvious or logical and contest their very existence. In addition to these rules I wish to invite all users that are part of the Meta community to add any proposals for existing conventions (or not) that they think should become official codified Meta policies for clarity reasons. I would ask anyone who has any questions to either reply here or to contact me via my talk page. Please do also not hesitate to edit or change the wording proposed above if you think you are able to make it more clear and comprehensible. --DeeM28 (talk) 17:27, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Proposal 2.1: Editing other users' messages

 * Threads and replies created by other users should generally not be edited by non-administrators or other non-advanced permission holders (such as experienced patrollers and Stewards), without their prior consent, notwithstanding to make technical corrections (i.e., to fix or update transclusions, retarget wikilinks, fix lint errors, or to make other corrections of a technical nature in the discretion of, principally, Meta administrators), to add unsigned signatures, or to make minor formatting, stylistic, or grammatical corrections. If in doubt as to whether one should edit another user's message or thread (in other words, in so-called "edge case" situations), one should, ideally, ask the subject user or ask a Meta administrator, usually by opening a new thread at Administrators' noticeboard or adding admin help to a new thread on their own user talk page. This only affects the alteration of messages and does not affect the right to remove, revert or undo posts as currently exists; however, users should be mindful when reverting threads from other users, particularly when using semi-automated tools such as Twinkle to ensure they were not merely reverting a good-faith question when a response is more appropriate.

[ I'm not quite sure why we need a non-admin/admin distinction here? I feel like the exceptions you list are enough and I can't really see a situation where an administrator would have to edit a message (rather than just remove it) for reasons other than the exceptions listed. (By distinction I mean the first 'by non-administrators' phrase, not the one that says principally by admins which is fine. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 06:21, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this wasn't originally there but is just making it even worse now. A lot of the proposals were changed to add number creep and power to specific user groups. I was neutral on the original proposal, but would oppose this version. Naleksuh (talk) 06:24, 10 May 2022 (UTC)]

Proposal 3: Editing other users' user pages

 * Other users' userpages should not generally be edited by non-administrators without their prior consent, notwithstanding the usual exceptions that include, correcting misleading statements (i.e. an assertion that one has rights that they do not in fact possess), to remove content that violates the Code of Conduct or other global policies or Meta Wiki local policies, is otherwise generally considered to be offensive or inappropriate for a user page, is either blatant vandalism or patent nonsense/gibberish, is narrowly construed as blatant spam (note that promotional user pages which act as a user's curriculum vitae are not "spam" for this purpose; spam is unambiguous self-promotion of a commercial product or service, often involving SEO techniques), to make minor technical corrections (i.e., to fix or update a page or template transclusion following a page move or deletion, to retarget wikilinks (usually related to the format), to fix lint errors, or to otherwise correct a broken redirect or double redirect), or to otherwise make minor, non-substantive corrections. As with above, if in doubt as to whether one should edit another user's user page (in other words, in so-called "edge case" situations), one should, ideally, ask the subject user or ask a Meta administrator, usually by opening a new thread at Administrators' noticeboard or adding admin help to a new thread on their own user talk page.

Proposal 4: Edit warring

 * Edit warring is not permitted on Meta (including on one's own talkpage). The 3 revert rule as described on Wikipedia is not applicable on Meta, and the level of sanction for edit warring is to be determined by a Meta administrator depending on the circumstances.

[I don't think it's necessary to directly reference 3RR since it isn't a hard rule and just states that it 'often attract blocks of at least 24 hours', so it's not a hard rule or anything --Reception123]

[I'm okay with the reference to the 3 revert rule, but would suggest rephrasing this. I wouldn't say it's not specifically "not applicable on Meta," but rather may be used by some administrators for the purpose of assessing whether edit warring has occurred or the severity. --Dmehus]

[Are you also proposing an exemption to WP:INVOLVED, given that the incident this proposal is referencing suggested that the user who was edit warring should place a block? --Naleksuh
 * In the example to which you're likely referring, ideally, an administrator should ask another administrator to issue a sanction, including a block; however, this is not always possible. I do agree Reception123 should not have continued the reverting for as long he did and should have followed up his warning with a short block, or, if possible, asked another administrator to follow up on his warning with a short block. Failing that, it could've always raised a thread at Administrators' noticeboard seeking the other Meta administrators' and/or the Meta Wiki community's input on next steps -Dmehus
 * No, the entire point is that Reception123 was one of the users reverting, so them placing a block would be a violation of the policy on involved sysops. You are now suggesting that they should have placed a block, which sounds like you are simply completely ignoring the policy. If you wish to rescind it, that is a seperate proposal. --Naleksuh
 * Well, no as WP:INVOLVED is not a Meta Wiki policy. As a best practice, many administrators have usually, but not always, followed that English Wikipedia guideline. In this case, given that Reception123 had given the user a warning, the user paid no heed to said convention, I do not feel that following up with a short block for the user continuing to disregard the established Meta Wiki convention in this case. It was a standard "clearly warn, cite way, revert, and sanction" case. The only error he made, in this case, was in continuing to revert seemingly indefinitely. If it had been a standard, sanction after the user reverted following his initial warning, I'm quite confident that was acceptable practice for a Meta administrator and do feel rather strongly the community would see it this way also --Dmehus
 * Now you aren't even accurately what happened. The content was never restored again after the "warning" was delivered, instead, the "warning" was removed from the page. So no, the "warning" was not ignored, and actions did not repeat, instead, the "warning" was removed from the page, which is an indicator that the message has been read and acknowledged. If you cannot even accurately describe the situation that you are trying to retroactively change the rules for, does this not invalidate the entire proposal? --Naleksuh]
 * I think the debate about Proposal 4 seems to rather be approaching a debate about Proposal 1 and the discussion here seems to generally be more appropriate for when this RfC goes out of the draft stage. Regarding WP:INVOLVED, I generally do think it's a good idea to follow it (and I would do things differently next time) but I don't think it should be strictly applied, especially given the fact that there's not many active Meta admins so it might not always be possible for another Meta admin to get involved in time. What you seem to suggest is that if I would, for example, warn a vandal to stop what they're doing and then they'd revert my warning, I'd revert it back, etc. then I wouldn't be able to block them because I'm involved. The danger in following Wikipedia policies is that they have many more resources and another admin can be found in seconds if needed, while here that's not the case. --Reception123
 * No, that doesn't apply or make the situation any different. INVOLVED does not apply to vandalism and a few other things as well. The purpose of INVOLVED is to avoid a judgement call in a situation in which you are involved. As the quote on the side says, "No man is a fit arbitrator in his own cause" -- Naleksuh]