Community noticeboard/Archive 38

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Why have I been blocked?
I have been blocked on several wikis where I have never made a single edit, one is in Chinese, the other in Italian, both languages I do not understand. The reason in the italian wiki is that I posted meaningless content Inserimento di contenuti privi di senso, in fact I have not made a single edit in this wiki (why would I???). Lily talk and I will listen · Lilypond Wiki 20:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Possibly consult those wikis? Collei (talk) 20:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Also, I'll just add, if some are private wikis found using Special:WikiDiscover, (I have clicked on a few of these without realizing they were privte)... apparently once you land on one of these site's main page, it shows on their RC a new account being created. Sometimes the staff/volunteers of these wikis ban all usernames, thinking random people have access when we really don't (has happened to me on several private wikis), and just for landing on their **public** Main Page. I don't think they realize that we have access to view nothing else, and their banning is pretty much fruitless and silly, but it still happens regularly. If that's the case Lily, I wouldn't worry too much about it. For those where you've been falsely banned, I'm thinking you should be able to appeal on a user page and inform them of their mistake as Collei mentioned (depending on that wiki's settings)? | -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 20:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you; these are all private wikis, and they all have been closed. The bans just do not look nice im my user stats, otherwise I do not care. I think the admins do not know what they are doing, LilyLilyu - smile.svg talk and I will listen · Lilypond Wiki 20:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You're welcome Lily. :) I hear you, and I have thought the same of my own stats, but if anyone were to review the reasons for the blocks, they'd see we've never made edits in any of these communities. I suppose we could try to help educate these users on their meta/global user pages, though that's a lot of effort for something so silly! ;-) Cheers! | -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 21:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I realized I misread your earlier comment, the wikis are now closed, I see what you mean. In this case, I'd consider enquiring if these will stick on user stats after the wikis have gone dormant or are closed. | -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * By the time that they are actually deleted, they will no longer be in the database. Collei (talk) 01:03, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Transferring temporary wiki to permanent domain
How easy would it be to make my wiki with one domain now and then transfer the content to a different wiki once I gain ownership of that one? (I am currently trying to reopen and gain ownership of deepwoken.miraheze.org) Heroku (talk) 20:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Probably more trouble than needed. I've reopened the wiki so you can edit freely now. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 00:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

How do you make a page editable by only Bureaucrats?
Hello,

My home Wiki is Liberty Center Schools Wiki, where I want to make a page editable by ONLY bureaucrats. I have tried to search through the Manage Wiki page and can't find it. How do I do this? There are also some other Manage Wiki settings that I would like turned on, like the ones on TestWiki. LC Developer (talk) 17:32, 22 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The highest level of protection in default MediaWiki is administrators only; however, you can create an abuse filter that prevents anyone without the "managewiki" right (which only bureaucrats have by default) from editing that page. Tali64³ (talk) 18:03, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Will do. LC Developer (talk) 18:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Tali64³: I know how to create an abuse filter, but what text do I add to it? LC Developer (talk) 18:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You can add a new level of protection to the wiki by making a few changes to the mw-config repo on GitHub, feel free to make a Phabricator task requesting this addition. -- Bukkit  [ cetacean needed ] 22:17, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's an example filter I made:

action == "edit"

& page_title = "[add your page's title here]"

& !contains_any(user_rights, "managewiki") Tali64³ (talk) 18:12, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Reception123's Nomination for IRC Group Contact
Mostly for the same reason as my request above, for the reason of balancing things out on IRC as group contacts. I believe Reception123 would be great addition to that as well, as they are very active on IRC, and responsive to requests. It would make sense to have more than just one additional Group Contact as well. For that reason I nominate Reception123 for it as well. Universal Omega (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, Universal Omega. I accept the nomination. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 06:46, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Questions for candidate

 * 1) Below in MacFan's oppose section he said, "A private discussion between Miraheze staff members", do you feel private discussions should be a preliminary aspect of starting community discussions like this? It's interesting that 3 requests have come at once following a discussion that is not public and involving 2 groups labelled as staff when neither are Board appointed? Miraheze has had a long history of having a closed 'old boys' style club where decisions were made in private involving groups that either a) shouldn't be discussing community affecting things privately (stewards) or b) shouldn't be having a major influence on community aspects by definition (SRE). I find it slightly concerning that this line of proposals is coming out of re-igniting such a private and exclusive club. John (talk) 21:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I mostly would associate myself with the extensive answer that Universal Omega has already provided to the same question in his request. As far as I'm concerned, I was caught by surprise in the morning to learn that Universal Omega had nominated me and he simply informed me of this fact via DM. I also wouldn't say that any "decisions" would have been made in any case by this "club" as there was, as far as I'm aware no attempt to influence people involved to vote in any particular way, and certainly I don't think they would have voted differently if the aspect was never discussed in the "club". Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 05:48, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) What steps would you take to ensure the community remains uninfluenced by such private and closed venues where the community can not suitably or appropriately assess need, necessity or content of such non-sensitive discussions? John (talk) 21:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I against associate myself with what Universal Omega has said and think it's important to remind ourselves of the need to be more transparent in our decision making. I do believe that at times it is useful in some cases to have such a group but I don't think that important "decisions" should be made there. As Universal Omega also suggested, I think it's best to compare such a group to a DM, where ideas can be discussed before getting to a stage of actual concrete proposals. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 05:48, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would also add that this group is not at all like the former private SRE group where often decisions were directly made there without community input or transparency, before the role of CES was introduced. I still don't think that it can be said that any "decisions" of any kind are made within this group. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 05:58, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What are your thoughts then on the fact this 'group' is used to created targeted harassment cases of users like Naleksuh and others users by making jokes around things like:
 * "just run DROP NALE FROM *;"
 * "I’d gladly risk my rights to block him on ever wiki I have advanced rights on"
 * "He can’t appeal IRC bans if we globally ban him"
 * "I’d vote a policy that says the cabal can revoke any right, anytime we want 😂"
 * "Thats when we OS it and it never happened"
 * "Fwiw theres not a snowballs chance in hell any of us would support it"
 * Do these comments represent value and Miraheze in a good way? John (talk) 07:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You seem to have a deep misunderstanding of the nature of a collegial work environment. I'm out.
 * Thanks for all the fish, y'all.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 08:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * A project has been effectively ruined for such a misguided goal and for the sake of one user that has mistreated the entire volunteer team. Congratulations, truly for this. It's just unconceivable. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 08:10, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have to admit I don’t recall when/where that conversation took place. I’m not even sure I was a part of it. The fact is that private conversations are private for various reasons. It is not up to a single person to just release those messages without first talking to the other people involved in the conversation. Doing so is a violation of trust and respect. I find it very alarming that John thought that it would ever be appropriate. Even if a channel is not NDA bound, you should still talk to everybody else first. To : I want to assure you that SRE was certainly not being serious about any of those comments. I apologize on behalf of SRE, for you suddenly being brought further into this. Sometimes we get annoyed with people and talk to each other about it, but we never mean to disrespect anybody ever, which is exactly why these messages were meant to stay private. It’s understandable that you will be upset by the messages, but I would advise that you don’t escalate the situation further then it has already been. Multiple people are already upset, and I don’t want to make things worse. Mistakes were made, and once again I am deeply sorry that you had to be put in the center of all this. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 12:15, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I feel I should comment as those messages are mine, I stated those things either as a joke, or in frustration, under the assumption it was being said privately and among friends, and people I trusted. No action was ever taken because of said messages. Context is important here and leaking these messages without it is a violation of my trust, and quite frankly is unfair, it makes us look like the bad guy, its not uncommon in a workplace for people to say things like this out of frustration and such. Zppix (Meta &#124; talk to me) 15:45, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Suddenly, I am not having so much trouble guessing what the WMF banned you for, John.
 * You've tried to make the entirety of Miraheze look bad over this. I really need you to understand that what one person says out of frustration in what is essentially a workplace over incidents like this and this does not reflect Miraheze. Private messages are private for a reason. If someone says something in a channel that Nale can't access, you shouldn't be sending it to Nale without good reason.
 * At least Fandom, which had their marketing and HR team post bogus Glassdoor reviews, doesn't leak private, internal communications because someone got mad at another employee.
 * Bravo. About half of the volunteer team up and quit because you can't respect their basic right to privacy and confidentiality. One of our active Discord users just said they're worried that Miraheze will turn into the next ShoutWiki. You have no idea how to run an organization. Collei (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What is John's WMF account. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No-one's business but John's. Posting off-Miraheze handles without other user's permission is outing. Naleksuh (talk) 02:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Then how does know that he's banned? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Because Collei did so anyway. Just because something shouldn't happen doesn't mean it hasn't. Naleksuh (talk) 03:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * stewardsmiraheze.org or tsmiraheze.org can deal with allegations of outing. Of course, referencing someone's Wikipedia account is not outing their personal information, so you won't have much luck reporting me for mentioning that John has a Wikipedia account.
 * Is it outing for me to mention that Reception123's Discord handle is? After all, it's off-wiki contact information, and is even tied to - gasp - a PNG of one of the default GitHub profile pictures. Collei (talk) 04:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Courtesy ping.
 * Could you tell me how you know? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:16, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's been routinely mentioned on the Discord that John has a Wikipedia account and is banned by the WMF for violating a contract while employed at the WMF. Collei (talk) 04:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not outing, that's silly .That said, bringing up the WMF ban is a low blow that doesn't help in this or any related case. --Raidarr (talk) 08:30, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Great, I already acknowledged that a while ago on Discord. Now, I hope we can all agree that Trust & Safety is not going to be globally locking my account for outing someone's Wikipedia username and Discord tag? Collei (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Support

 * 1)  Per nomination Universal Omega (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Per my above rationale. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 06:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 3)  I don't know anything about this, but he seems like a decent guy. If you disagree, I am free to change my vote if I find your argument compelling. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 06:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) per above. by Buehl106·Talk·e-mail 06:40, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 5)  --   Joseph  TB  CT  CA   06:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 6)  Reception123 is a very trusted user and I don't see any issues with this request. I'm not worried about them becoming a 'poweruser' as I trust they're responsible and for the most part, over the course of almost 8 years, they've been responsible and almost generally always non-controversial.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:11, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 7)  No reason to oppose, and Reception123 is clearly capable of this right. Nale's response makes little sense and acts as if someone is forbidden from being both SRE and a Steward (Requests for Comment exists if you want to make a policy on that - there is no policy as it stands). "Reception123 has since backed down from their stance that users who leave messages should get to reinstate them upon removal, exempt from the edit warring policy, but only because of the conversation of removal of warnings" has nothing to do with this. Again, open an RfC if you want to change policy. Someone performing an action that you don't agree with doesn't mean they are unworthy of this right. Collei (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 8) Reception123 has maintained presence since near the start of Miraheze as an entity and was active on its predecessors as well.  They are well-regarded and trusted by the community and thus a logical choice for a maintainer role on IRC as outlined above. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 17:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 9)  Same as above application/nomination, trusted and active user, no issues with this. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 10)  Very well trusted user. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 14:46, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) Oppose for several reasons.
 * 1) This request was immediately following Universal Omega's request. Why did you choose to make one then, and not the day before?
 * 2) Hats: This user is already both a Steward and SRE, which I believe there should not be both, and group contact on top of that? This is how "power-users" are formed and it is not good. There should be a limit on how many hats one person can have, and this should be it as well.
 * 3) For the same reason I opposed your RfS: I do not like the idea of inventing your own rules or treating sysops as freemen or even justifying actions on that alone. Community discussions are important, and sysops answer to the community. Reception123 has since backed down from their stance that users who leave messages should get to reinstate them upon removal, exempt from the edit warring policy, but only because of the conversation of removal of warnings. The subject of sysops declaring themselves exempt from edit warring did not come up. I do not want "I'm a group contact so I am right" coming to IRC.
 * 4) With Universal Omega's request above, there is no more need for any group contacts. Naleksuh (talk) 07:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would like to note, that this was a nomination from me, and was my idea, not Reception123's initial idea. Me reasoning for this, is that I believe in balancing things out, and Reception123's and my timezones are almost opposites, and with us both very active, one of us would almost always be around. It's understandable that John can't always be around, and lately has not been to much, as such I feel that if my request above is successful, I'd still be the only truly active GC, which doesn't help the situation of not enough GCs. It would be nice to have at least one more there as well. The current situation is almost no GCs being truly active and should both these requests be successful ensure in the future we have more GCs, and it is not dependent on just one for some things at a given time. Universal Omega (talk) 07:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * As for the part of "inventing rules" I am sure that I have explained my reasoning before but it seems maybe it was not understood. I'll explain again. Not all rules must be explicitly written down in unambiguous terms - there will be conventions and practices that have developed over time. If the community doesn't like those it can vote and create policies. As for "users who leave messages should get to reinstate them upon removal" that was the practice that was followed by other administrators as well, until the community voted to repeal it. I am not one to claim "I am right" and accusing me of such behavior demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge about me and how I frequently encourage community discussions and RfCs to clarify ambiguous positions. As for the hats issue, I would generally agree with that statement but unfortunately the reality is that we don't have enough trusted volunteers to fill out these positions. If we did, I would not have accepted to run. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 13:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  per Naleksuh. I have nothing personally against Reception123, but I really don't want a 'cabal' here. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 08:21, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it might be pertinent to consider my reply and not simply choose to believe the narrative that Naleksuh has created without being aware of the context. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 13:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the context. I understand that you believe it was a convention. But that doesn't mean you have to do it, nor does it mean edit warring to follow it. In particular, one result of that discussion is that "unwritten customs" are just that -- "customs" and should not be treated like policies or result in sanctions. The problem was "unwritten customs" being used to enact policies without them being policies, and I don't really think that was ever a custom. And even if we were to ignore that, it doesn't affect any of the other points-- both that CosmicAlpha is already requesting and that I do not any one person to have too many hats-- you already have more than I think one person should be able to -- no need for more on top of that! Naleksuh (talk) 17:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * > I am aware of the context. I understand that you believe it was a convention. But that doesn't mean you have to do it, nor does it mean edit warring to follow it. In particular, one result of that discussion is that "unwritten customs" are just that -- "customs" and should not be treated like policies or result in sanctions. The problem was "unwritten customs" being used to enact policies without them being policies, and I don't really think that was ever a custom.
 * You have been informed many times before that Miraheze does not follow Wikipedia policies. Please see WPESSAY and WPPOLICY. Just because you don't agree on what is and isn't a convention doesn't mean that Reception123 is unable to become an IRC Group Contact. Everything that you mentioned there has nothing to do with being an IRC Group Contact.
 * > And even if we were to ignore that, it doesn't affect any of the other points-- both that CosmicAlpha is already requesting and that I do not any one person to have too many hats-- you already have more than I think one person should be able to -- no need for more on top of that!
 * Why? If you want there to be a limit to how many roles someone can have, open an RfC, instead of opposing a vote for IRC group contact rights due to your opinion on what non-existent rules should become policies. Collei (talk) 22:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You have been informed many times before that Miraheze does not follow Wikipedia policies. Nowhere in my comment did I mention Wikipedia. Also, you might have the roles reversed. Reception123 was the one trying to treat customs like policies, and I was the one saying no they aren't policies. So, "Miraheze doesn't follow Wikipedia policies" would actually support my case.
 * Why? If you want there to be a limit to how many roles someone can have, open an RfC, instead of opposing a vote for IRC group contact rights due to your opinion on what non-existent rules should become policies. That idea can differ between people and is not something that's easy to measure. That's why I do it this way. If it makes you feel any better, some people blanketly oppose all RfAs because they think there are too many sysops. I don't do that! Naleksuh (talk) 17:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "Nowhere in my comment did I mention Wikipedia." - Yes you did. You are discussing an edit warring, 3RR, etc. policy like they apply here.
 * "That idea can differ between people and is not something that's easy to measure. That's why I do it this way. If it makes you feel any better, some people blanketly oppose all RfAs because they think there are too many sysops. I don't do that! " - I have no idea what this means, but it just seems like "X is worse than Y, so Y is not bad". Collei (talk) 18:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there a 2RR policy here? Naleksuh said I was edit warring for reverting his reinstation of a RevDeled edit. See here. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 18:55, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There is not an edit warring or revert rule policy that I can find at all. Of course, repeatedly re-instating the same edit is disruptive, so action would be taken against it, but claiming that our revert rule and exceptions are the exact same as Wikipedia doesn't comply with WPPOLICY. Collei (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, what I was doing was not disruptive - I was removing content that had already been removed and RevDeled. Naleksuh said that what I was doing was disruptive because it was edit warring. See my talk page and Agent Isai's for more. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 21:01, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd ask Agent Isai for an opinion on this because I am obviously biased against Nale at this point, so I don't want to weigh in on things where I may be unintentionally effected by this bias unless I really need to weigh in. Collei (talk) 21:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 22:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The 3-revert-rule is a Wikipedia policy, though people tend to apply it here when trying to prove themself innocent of edit warring (i.e. I wasn't edit warring, I reverted 3 times in 24 hours and 1 second!). I don't think I've ever mentioned the 3-revert rule myself. I believe that edit warring is considered on a case by case basis, and that when your edit is reverted, you should not reinstate it with very limited exceptions. I do my best to follow this rule myself as well. The content had not been revdelled when I started reverting (and I only reverted once, but Bbbtest revered twice, reverting two different people), but once it had been, I did not revert again. I am also sad to hear that you are "biased against me", but I hope this clears up anything that was vague. Let me know if you are still confused as to what I mean. Naleksuh (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am also sad to hear that you are "biased against me"
 * Perhaps it was too harsh by mistake but the arguments on Discord/IRC over what I feel are usually petty things make it very difficult to talk to you. I don't mean that in a rude way, but I'm not the only one who's expressed such a concern. Collei (talk) 22:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe that Naleksuh is (overall) in the right and has made valuable contributions to Miraheze, though I do think that he should try to AGF more and be less combative. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:45, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Stopping donation messages that appear in every wiki
how to stop

THEY'RE EVEN MORE ANNOYING THAN ADS

H A M 1 (talk) 20:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I believe there is no way to get rid of them until they clear them. All they are trying to get more money since domain prices have skyrocketed recently. They also don't get paid from companies for ads, and they don't want to resort to doing that. Sorry, that's all I could do, Commetiaa (talk) 21:05, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * They're needed unless you want to see full page banner ads :)
 * Once we get enough funds to secure Miraheze for the next year, they'll stop. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 21:17, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we should run them for longer. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * User talk:Agent Isai Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I donated a little bit of money, will they stop appearing for me? I wasn't particularly bothered by them, I was just wondering. Bonbonyoshi (talk) 09:44, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I think there are only two ways to get rid of them. One, you use the method above your comment, and use those steps; or just wait until they have enough money for the next year. Commetiaa (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * i thought that domain prices tetrationally skyrocketed in a single day (early march) H A M 1 (talk) 17:32, 23 March 2023 (UTC)