Community noticeboard

sibebar help ?
Can someone help me modify sidebar on this wiki? https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sidebar

Marieke Timelab (talk) 15:50, 14 March 2023 (UTC)


 * also interested in this! ZBlace (talk) 15:51, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear on what your specific question/challenge is you want to solve. Here's MediaWiki's documentation on how to customize the sidebar, if you have a more specific question we're happy to help...
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 17:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If you can see the source of Sidebar page *https://timelab.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sidebar&action=edit, then you can also see it is not interpreted/used in Sidebar menu at all, as if there is override with defaults..is that not problematic? --18:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, it appears that there was a bad cached version of the page. I used the More >> Purge action to force a re-render and your sidebar changes now show up. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 19:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham thank you!
 * @Marieke Timelab any other help needed? ZBlace (talk) 19:56, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham are you sure it was cache issue? I tried purging it also but now did not get newest version :-(
 * -- ZBlace (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Bar contents are appearing, there are just issues with the source code as entered today. See attached screenshot, one of the issues is that they're trying to use inline links for partial text with  and , while MediaWiki only supports exact_pagename|text_to_display without brackets for the sidebar, to my understanding.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 18:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I added code for you and @Marieke Timelab to test out for the sidebar, you can find it on:
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Sidebar
 * It worked flawlessly on my personal instance, hope it helps! Cheers, --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 21:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham thank you...
 * Strange that sidebar would not support other type of links.
 * -- ZBlace (talk) 14:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Example Shot Of Sidebar.png


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Universal Omega's Request for IRC Group Contact
Hello, this is highly unorthodox and unprecedented request. I am not 100% sure if this is even how to go about it. However, I have decided to make this request (which may or may not be advisory-only to existing group contacts) to be an IRC Group Contact. My reason for this request is that currently there is only a single group contact on IRC. This means that when that one group contact is away there is no one else to handle requests. And ideally in order to balance things out, there should be more than one group contact, if not just to have a fallback to handle things requiring the attention of a group contact. Therefore, I am now making this request, and requesting confirmation from the community for the position as IRC Group Contact. Thank you! Universal Omega (talk) 05:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I would like to confirm, that even given recent events, and my resignation from SRE, I am not withdrawing this request. Now more than ever we need GCs, and even though I am no longer SRE, I still am a community member here, and am committed to helping things move forward between relations between all core groups in Miraheze. My first and foremost commitment is to the community, and even given recent events and regrettable things that have happened that has not changed, and I am still keeping this request up. I just thought I should clarify that. Universal Omega (talk) 20:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Questions for candidate

 * 1) Below in MacFan's oppose section he said, "A private discussion between Miraheze staff members", do you feel private discussions should be a preliminary aspect of starting community discussions like this? It's interesting that 3 requests have come at once following a discussion that is not public and involving 2 groups labelled as staff when neither are Board appointed? Miraheze has had a long history of having a closed 'old boys' style club where decisions were made in private involving groups that either a) shouldn't be discussing community affecting things privately (stewards) or b) shouldn't be having a major influence on community aspects by definition (SRE). I find it slightly concerning that this line of proposals is coming out of re-igniting such a private and exclusive club. John (talk) 21:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No extensive conversation took place. I had voiced my intent to make this request, which I always wanted to be a community and not internal decision, or at least an "advisory" aspect on the decision of this. I then privately talked it over with Reception123, to make sure they were also okay with me nominating them for it, as I felt we needed at least two fairly active members of IRC as additional GCs. MacFan4000 and I had only briefly discussed in a PM. And in another conversation, it was voiced between a few users that there was a need, which is why I made this request.
 * I made this request before any other requests, or even voiced intents to make such request was even mentioned from other users. I believe that the community should have an opinion on the matter, which is why I made this, rather than requesting directly to you, or requesting it be inherited from any other position.
 * The "private" conversation that took place, should not have been said "staff" as was described above, but an unofficial group, that this was discussed on. Calling it "staff" decision or discussion was wrong, and the whole scope of the conversation was that it would be good to expand on the GCs, for numerous reasons, as I outlined in this request.
 * The last thing I would note, is the "private" conversation mentioned, was not even only SRE, or Stewards, but other users were also. It was never in an NDA channel, or any channel officially sanctioned by Miraheze, but a private discussion between the more trusted and active users. It was not necessarily a "sensitive" discussion, and the conversation was not meant to make a "decision" on the matter.
 * At least for me, the point of this request, while having no precedent for this exact request, was to in fact involve the community in the decision and discussion revolving around it. This for me was meant to take it out of just private areas into a place where the community could voice their opinion on it as well. Universal Omega (talk) 22:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Given the purpose of the channel has been further clarified to not include private/sensitive discussions, why does it exist only to include 'active and trusted' users if the discussions can be public? John (talk) 22:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) What steps would you take to ensure the community remains uninfluenced by such private and closed venues where the community can not suitably or appropriately assess need, necessity or content of such non-sensitive discussions? John (talk) 21:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I kinda answered this question above as well. I think there might have been a misunderstanding on the scope of the discussion that took place, it was not a long discussion, this post (and the ones that followed) are the majority of any discussion that took place prior to the request. Once the discussion was started it took place here, openly to the community. That is the majority of any discussion to have taken place, other then some passive mentioning that additional GCs might not hurt for various reasons (which I do admit I brought up), and potentially expanding them might be needed. But overall, it was not meant to be a solely private, secret, or hidden conversation at all, which was the point of this request, and my nomination for Reception123 below as well. Universal Omega (talk) 22:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This discussion wouldn't have been the first one to have been had in a secretive venue though - so I would like a more broad answer over what steps you'd take to ensure such venues don't continue to be a source of where discussions can be had in private only privy to those allowed, rather than the whole community who should be engaged in them? John (talk) 22:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That is fair. I do admit that this probably should never have even made its way into that channel. The conversations to usually take place there are related to some moderation, off-topic, and just random conversations. It's purpose is more inline of a group DM then an actual channel, but the channel is used on IRC to relay from Discord. It has had a place on Discord for years, as just a random conversation between a few users, that I do admit these type of conversations should not take place on. But it has only existed on IRC and relayed for about a day, it was never intended to have conversations that impact the community there, but sometimes things can veer off-course into foggy grounds in the matter. Though nothing ever NDA bound is discussed there. It's purpose has always been, on Discord anyway, as a group DM chat for users to ask others questions, have advisory for some things, or just discuss random things. The conversation that took place yesterday was fairly rare in the scope of it and we typically try to avoid such conversations.
 * I think this also answers your above question as well. I do agree with your point that most conversations should take place public, especially like these. But I don't agree that nothing can ever be private, there is a use-case for some private personal conversations (including between non-NDA users) that do take place, which is why that channel exists.. however, it should be noted that conversations such as these should not take place there in the future. Universal Omega (talk) 22:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Support

 * 1) No problems. Though, I don't think Libera Chat reads RfCs, John can certainly ask for it if this is successful Naleksuh (talk) 05:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  CosmicAlpha can be the fully active group contact, since John is in and out. Trusted, not a problem. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 05:18, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 3)  This is okay. --   Joseph  TB  CT  CA   06:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4)  No issues with this request.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 5)  This is a minimal-effort role that also requires a trusted user that is also an IRC regular.  CosmicAlpha (along with the other two proposed users) will give us an active presence and allow for normal maintenance/continuity of operations --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 16:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 6)  Trusted and active user, no issues with this. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1)  While I have no problems with Universal Omega becoming a GC, with the recent resignations, and them stating their intent to leave Miraheze as a whole, I don't get the sense that they are going to be very active on IRC. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 14:44, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Same as my vote on Reception123's request. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 10:37, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Per this. There have already been two previous issues regarding targetted harassment, and I did note that if it continued I would not be able to contribute to Miraheze. Yet sadly one of the only people I trusted decided not only to join that club and not only do things unbecoming of a GC even just by things I could see (I wrote a 6000+ word document detailing the issues) yet this morning I see this shit? What the hell?! I suppose this request is just to be able to continue that on a larger power mode. Naleksuh (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I accept this, but just to say one thing, I am very sorry for things that have happened. I have never myself been involved in anything you consider harassment, and have always been one to at least try and defend you. It hasn't been a common theme amongst volunteers, as your actions haven't always been great, but I've always understood, trusted, and supported you for the most part. I deeply apologise for everything that has happened. I hope you can at least try and accept my sincere apology for that personally. The content that had been posted were taken put of context and were meant in a jokingly way, but it still doesn't necessarily make it okay for you and understand you may feel in the matter. I am not trying to ask you to switch your vote as I'll admit you're probably right in your oppose based off some things that have happened, but I do still want to offer my own apology for how things played out. Universal Omega (talk) 17:11, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Who made those comments? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:54, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Who made what comments? Naleksuh (talk) 02:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The ones on IRC shown by John. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't confirm myself (John can), but some people were saying Zppix sent them. This is curious because Zppix is not an IRC operator. So either this wasn't an IRC operator discussion and was just the Club in general, or Zppix was not actually the one who wrote them. Naleksuh (talk) 03:08, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * They were taken from Discord, not IRC. Had nothing to do with IRC at the time. Universal Omega (talk) 03:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What is discord? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:16, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) agree with macfan, doesn't make sense for someone who left Miraheze to be our GC. OrangeStar (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) this and future permissions requests based on recent events. I would advise shedding hats instead. --Raidarr (talk) 13:50, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Reception123's Nomination for IRC Group Contact
Mostly for the same reason as my request above, for the reason of balancing things out on IRC as group contacts. I believe Reception123 would be great addition to that as well, as they are very active on IRC, and responsive to requests. It would make sense to have more than just one additional Group Contact as well. For that reason I nominate Reception123 for it as well. Universal Omega (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, Universal Omega. I accept the nomination. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 06:46, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Questions for candidate

 * 1) Below in MacFan's oppose section he said, "A private discussion between Miraheze staff members", do you feel private discussions should be a preliminary aspect of starting community discussions like this? It's interesting that 3 requests have come at once following a discussion that is not public and involving 2 groups labelled as staff when neither are Board appointed? Miraheze has had a long history of having a closed 'old boys' style club where decisions were made in private involving groups that either a) shouldn't be discussing community affecting things privately (stewards) or b) shouldn't be having a major influence on community aspects by definition (SRE). I find it slightly concerning that this line of proposals is coming out of re-igniting such a private and exclusive club. John (talk) 21:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I mostly would associate myself with the extensive answer that Universal Omega has already provided to the same question in his request. As far as I'm concerned, I was caught by surprise in the morning to learn that Universal Omega had nominated me and he simply informed me of this fact via DM. I also wouldn't say that any "decisions" would have been made in any case by this "club" as there was, as far as I'm aware no attempt to influence people involved to vote in any particular way, and certainly I don't think they would have voted differently if the aspect was never discussed in the "club". Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 05:48, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) What steps would you take to ensure the community remains uninfluenced by such private and closed venues where the community can not suitably or appropriately assess need, necessity or content of such non-sensitive discussions? John (talk) 21:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I against associate myself with what Universal Omega has said and think it's important to remind ourselves of the need to be more transparent in our decision making. I do believe that at times it is useful in some cases to have such a group but I don't think that important "decisions" should be made there. As Universal Omega also suggested, I think it's best to compare such a group to a DM, where ideas can be discussed before getting to a stage of actual concrete proposals. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 05:48, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would also add that this group is not at all like the former private SRE group where often decisions were directly made there without community input or transparency, before the role of CES was introduced. I still don't think that it can be said that any "decisions" of any kind are made within this group. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 05:58, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What are your thoughts then on the fact this 'group' is used to created targeted harassment cases of users like Naleksuh and others users by making jokes around things like:
 * "just run DROP NALE FROM *;"
 * "I’d gladly risk my rights to block him on ever wiki I have advanced rights on"
 * "He can’t appeal IRC bans if we globally ban him"
 * "I’d vote a policy that says the cabal can revoke any right, anytime we want 😂"
 * "Thats when we OS it and it never happened"
 * "Fwiw theres not a snowballs chance in hell any of us would support it"
 * Do these comments represent value and Miraheze in a good way? John (talk) 07:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You seem to have a deep misunderstanding of the nature of a collegial work environment. I'm out.
 * Thanks for all the fish, y'all.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 08:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * A project has been effectively ruined for such a misguided goal and for the sake of one user that has mistreated the entire volunteer team. Congratulations, truly for this. It's just unconceivable. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 08:10, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have to admit I don’t recall when/where that conversation took place. I’m not even sure I was a part of it. The fact is that private conversations are private for various reasons. It is not up to a single person to just release those messages without first talking to the other people involved in the conversation. Doing so is a violation of trust and respect. I find it very alarming that John thought that it would ever be appropriate. Even if a channel is not NDA bound, you should still talk to everybody else first. To : I want to assure you that SRE was certainly not being serious about any of those comments. I apologize on behalf of SRE, for you suddenly being brought further into this. Sometimes we get annoyed with people and talk to each other about it, but we never mean to disrespect anybody ever, which is exactly why these messages were meant to stay private. It’s understandable that you will be upset by the messages, but I would advise that you don’t escalate the situation further then it has already been. Multiple people are already upset, and I don’t want to make things worse. Mistakes were made, and once again I am deeply sorry that you had to be put in the center of all this. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 12:15, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I feel I should comment as those messages are mine, I stated those things either as a joke, or in frustration, under the assumption it was being said privately and among friends, and people I trusted. No action was ever taken because of said messages. Context is important here and leaking these messages without it is a violation of my trust, and quite frankly is unfair, it makes us look like the bad guy, its not uncommon in a workplace for people to say things like this out of frustration and such. Zppix (Meta &#124; talk to me) 15:45, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Suddenly, I am not having so much trouble guessing what the WMF banned you for, John.
 * You've tried to make the entirety of Miraheze look bad over this. I really need you to understand that what one person says out of frustration in what is essentially a workplace over incidents like this and this does not reflect Miraheze. Private messages are private for a reason. If someone says something in a channel that Nale can't access, you shouldn't be sending it to Nale without good reason.
 * At least Fandom, which had their marketing and HR team post bogus Glassdoor reviews, doesn't leak private, internal communications because someone got mad at another employee.
 * Bravo. About half of the volunteer team up and quit because you can't respect their basic right to privacy and confidentiality. One of our active Discord users just said they're worried that Miraheze will turn into the next ShoutWiki. You have no idea how to run an organization. Collei (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What is John's WMF account. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No-one's business but John's. Posting off-Miraheze handles without other user's permission is outing. Naleksuh (talk) 02:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Then how does know that he's banned? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Because Collei did so anyway. Just because something shouldn't happen doesn't mean it hasn't. Naleksuh (talk) 03:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * stewardsmiraheze.org or tsmiraheze.org can deal with allegations of outing. Of course, referencing someone's Wikipedia account is not outing their personal information, so you won't have much luck reporting me for mentioning that John has a Wikipedia account.
 * Is it outing for me to mention that Reception123's Discord handle is? After all, it's off-wiki contact information, and is even tied to - gasp - a PNG of one of the default GitHub profile pictures. Collei (talk) 04:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Courtesy ping.
 * Could you tell me how you know? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:16, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's been routinely mentioned on the Discord that John has a Wikipedia account and is banned by the WMF for violating a contract while employed at the WMF. Collei (talk) 04:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not outing, that's silly .That said, bringing up the WMF ban is a low blow that doesn't help in this or any related case. --Raidarr (talk) 08:30, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Great, I already acknowledged that a while ago on Discord. Now, I hope we can all agree that Trust & Safety is not going to be globally locking my account for outing someone's Wikipedia username and Discord tag? Collei (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Support

 * 1)  Per nomination Universal Omega (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Per my above rationale. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 06:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 3)  I don't know anything about this, but he seems like a decent guy. If you disagree, I am free to change my vote if I find your argument compelling. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 06:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) per above. by Buehl106·Talk·e-mail 06:40, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 5)  --   Joseph  TB  CT  CA   06:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 6)  Reception123 is a very trusted user and I don't see any issues with this request. I'm not worried about them becoming a 'poweruser' as I trust they're responsible and for the most part, over the course of almost 8 years, they've been responsible and almost generally always non-controversial.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:11, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 7)  No reason to oppose, and Reception123 is clearly capable of this right. Nale's response makes little sense and acts as if someone is forbidden from being both SRE and a Steward (Requests for Comment exists if you want to make a policy on that - there is no policy as it stands). "Reception123 has since backed down from their stance that users who leave messages should get to reinstate them upon removal, exempt from the edit warring policy, but only because of the conversation of removal of warnings" has nothing to do with this. Again, open an RfC if you want to change policy. Someone performing an action that you don't agree with doesn't mean they are unworthy of this right. Collei (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 8) Reception123 has maintained presence since near the start of Miraheze as an entity and was active on its predecessors as well.  They are well-regarded and trusted by the community and thus a logical choice for a maintainer role on IRC as outlined above. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 17:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 9)  Same as above application/nomination, trusted and active user, no issues with this. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 10)  Very well trusted user. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 14:46, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) Oppose for several reasons.
 * 1) This request was immediately following Universal Omega's request. Why did you choose to make one then, and not the day before?
 * 2) Hats: This user is already both a Steward and SRE, which I believe there should not be both, and group contact on top of that? This is how "power-users" are formed and it is not good. There should be a limit on how many hats one person can have, and this should be it as well.
 * 3) For the same reason I opposed your RfS: I do not like the idea of inventing your own rules or treating sysops as freemen or even justifying actions on that alone. Community discussions are important, and sysops answer to the community. Reception123 has since backed down from their stance that users who leave messages should get to reinstate them upon removal, exempt from the edit warring policy, but only because of the conversation of removal of warnings. The subject of sysops declaring themselves exempt from edit warring did not come up. I do not want "I'm a group contact so I am right" coming to IRC.
 * 4) With Universal Omega's request above, there is no more need for any group contacts. Naleksuh (talk) 07:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would like to note, that this was a nomination from me, and was my idea, not Reception123's initial idea. Me reasoning for this, is that I believe in balancing things out, and Reception123's and my timezones are almost opposites, and with us both very active, one of us would almost always be around. It's understandable that John can't always be around, and lately has not been to much, as such I feel that if my request above is successful, I'd still be the only truly active GC, which doesn't help the situation of not enough GCs. It would be nice to have at least one more there as well. The current situation is almost no GCs being truly active and should both these requests be successful ensure in the future we have more GCs, and it is not dependent on just one for some things at a given time. Universal Omega (talk) 07:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * As for the part of "inventing rules" I am sure that I have explained my reasoning before but it seems maybe it was not understood. I'll explain again. Not all rules must be explicitly written down in unambiguous terms - there will be conventions and practices that have developed over time. If the community doesn't like those it can vote and create policies. As for "users who leave messages should get to reinstate them upon removal" that was the practice that was followed by other administrators as well, until the community voted to repeal it. I am not one to claim "I am right" and accusing me of such behavior demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge about me and how I frequently encourage community discussions and RfCs to clarify ambiguous positions. As for the hats issue, I would generally agree with that statement but unfortunately the reality is that we don't have enough trusted volunteers to fill out these positions. If we did, I would not have accepted to run. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 13:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  per Naleksuh. I have nothing personally against Reception123, but I really don't want a 'cabal' here. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 08:21, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it might be pertinent to consider my reply and not simply choose to believe the narrative that Naleksuh has created without being aware of the context. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 13:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the context. I understand that you believe it was a convention. But that doesn't mean you have to do it, nor does it mean edit warring to follow it. In particular, one result of that discussion is that "unwritten customs" are just that -- "customs" and should not be treated like policies or result in sanctions. The problem was "unwritten customs" being used to enact policies without them being policies, and I don't really think that was ever a custom. And even if we were to ignore that, it doesn't affect any of the other points-- both that CosmicAlpha is already requesting and that I do not any one person to have too many hats-- you already have more than I think one person should be able to -- no need for more on top of that! Naleksuh (talk) 17:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * > I am aware of the context. I understand that you believe it was a convention. But that doesn't mean you have to do it, nor does it mean edit warring to follow it. In particular, one result of that discussion is that "unwritten customs" are just that -- "customs" and should not be treated like policies or result in sanctions. The problem was "unwritten customs" being used to enact policies without them being policies, and I don't really think that was ever a custom.
 * You have been informed many times before that Miraheze does not follow Wikipedia policies. Please see WPESSAY and WPPOLICY. Just because you don't agree on what is and isn't a convention doesn't mean that Reception123 is unable to become an IRC Group Contact. Everything that you mentioned there has nothing to do with being an IRC Group Contact.
 * > And even if we were to ignore that, it doesn't affect any of the other points-- both that CosmicAlpha is already requesting and that I do not any one person to have too many hats-- you already have more than I think one person should be able to -- no need for more on top of that!
 * Why? If you want there to be a limit to how many roles someone can have, open an RfC, instead of opposing a vote for IRC group contact rights due to your opinion on what non-existent rules should become policies. Collei (talk) 22:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You have been informed many times before that Miraheze does not follow Wikipedia policies. Nowhere in my comment did I mention Wikipedia. Also, you might have the roles reversed. Reception123 was the one trying to treat customs like policies, and I was the one saying no they aren't policies. So, "Miraheze doesn't follow Wikipedia policies" would actually support my case.
 * Why? If you want there to be a limit to how many roles someone can have, open an RfC, instead of opposing a vote for IRC group contact rights due to your opinion on what non-existent rules should become policies. That idea can differ between people and is not something that's easy to measure. That's why I do it this way. If it makes you feel any better, some people blanketly oppose all RfAs because they think there are too many sysops. I don't do that! Naleksuh (talk) 17:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "Nowhere in my comment did I mention Wikipedia." - Yes you did. You are discussing an edit warring, 3RR, etc. policy like they apply here.
 * "That idea can differ between people and is not something that's easy to measure. That's why I do it this way. If it makes you feel any better, some people blanketly oppose all RfAs because they think there are too many sysops. I don't do that! " - I have no idea what this means, but it just seems like "X is worse than Y, so Y is not bad". Collei (talk) 18:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there a 2RR policy here? Naleksuh said I was edit warring for reverting his reinstation of a RevDeled edit. See here. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 18:55, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There is not an edit warring or revert rule policy that I can find at all. Of course, repeatedly re-instating the same edit is disruptive, so action would be taken against it, but claiming that our revert rule and exceptions are the exact same as Wikipedia doesn't comply with WPPOLICY. Collei (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, what I was doing was not disruptive - I was removing content that had already been removed and RevDeled. Naleksuh said that what I was doing was disruptive because it was edit warring. See my talk page and Agent Isai's for more. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 21:01, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd ask Agent Isai for an opinion on this because I am obviously biased against Nale at this point, so I don't want to weigh in on things where I may be unintentionally effected by this bias unless I really need to weigh in. Collei (talk) 21:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 22:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The 3-revert-rule is a Wikipedia policy, though people tend to apply it here when trying to prove themself innocent of edit warring (i.e. I wasn't edit warring, I reverted 3 times in 24 hours and 1 second!). I don't think I've ever mentioned the 3-revert rule myself. I believe that edit warring is considered on a case by case basis, and that when your edit is reverted, you should not reinstate it with very limited exceptions. I do my best to follow this rule myself as well. The content had not been revdelled when I started reverting (and I only reverted once, but Bbbtest revered twice, reverting two different people), but once it had been, I did not revert again. I am also sad to hear that you are "biased against me", but I hope this clears up anything that was vague. Let me know if you are still confused as to what I mean. Naleksuh (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am also sad to hear that you are "biased against me"
 * Perhaps it was too harsh by mistake but the arguments on Discord/IRC over what I feel are usually petty things make it very difficult to talk to you. I don't mean that in a rude way, but I'm not the only one who's expressed such a concern. Collei (talk) 22:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe that Naleksuh is (overall) in the right and has made valuable contributions to Miraheze, though I do think that he should try to AGF more and be less combative. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:45, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

MacFan4000's request for IRC Group Contact
Basically for the same reasons as in the above to requests. At least 2 or 3 new GCs would be a good idea so that we have active and available people who can deal with GC related requests. I am currently a GC for a different project, thus I am familiar with the policies and procedures, and am also already in the private GC IRC channel (run by Libera staff). I am reasonably active on IRC and can often be reached with a ping. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 13:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Questions for candidate

 * 1) Below in the oppose section you said, "A private discussion between Miraheze staff members", do you feel private discussions should be a preliminary aspect of starting community discussions like this? It's interesting that 3 requests have come at once following a discussion that is not public and involving 2 groups you're labelling as staff when neither are Board appointed? Miraheze has had a long history of having a closed 'old boys' style club where decisions were made in private involving groups that either a) shouldn't be discussing community affecting things privately (stewards) or b) shouldn't be having a major influence on community aspects by definition (SRE). I find it slightly concerning that this line of proposals is coming out of re-igniting such a private and exclusive club. John (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * We simply were talking about and agreeing on the fact that we really need to have another GC that has more availability. I want to make it clear that I did not start the conversation, though I did participate in it. Certainly it may have been a good idea for the discussion to have been held publicly.
 * So my point is more around why does such a channel where a community role and non community role co-exist that is utilised seemingly in such a way that public discussions can be usurped into a private environment to exclude the community from engaging in discussions/decisions initially that revolve around them? John (talk) 22:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Honestly, one could argue that these requests would serve as a public discussion, and if people agree with the issue they can support the request and if they don't they can oppose it. The private discussion ultimately lead to public discussion through these posts. I see no reason that such a private channel could stay in existence so long as more of these discussions are held publicly and no final decision is reached in the private channel. In this case the only "decisions" that took place were me and UO individually deciding to post these requests. I will also mention that I wasn't even part of this channel until yesterday. Also re: your statement about the use of the word staff, I wasn't aware that there was any official definition? I used the term loosely. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So you see no reason a private channel can't exist to have discussions that should be public but aren't because people who are 'lucky' to be in the channel choose to have such discussions? John (talk) 22:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I never said that. This was more to get support from other people before starting a public discussion. If nobody had agreed that the issue was valid i would not have been pursued any further. For community matter I would always ultimately want public input on the matter, and we are getting it through these requests. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You say that's not the case, but then immediately go to say if this 'private channel' had not agreed it was a problem, you wouldn't have consulted the community - who are the ones who should decide if there is a problem in the first place. Or would you then gone into a public channel to start a discussion over what you had discussed in the private channel that no one agreed with you on? John (talk) 22:48, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Had I been the one starting the conversation, I would have done so publicly. Ether way I probably would have eventually some day posted this request. I had been thinking about it from time to time, but I don't often start discussions, nor do I very often participate in them. I also have no knowledge of any of the previous ones that took place in this channel. In this case requesting a role is a personal decision, and it was helpful to hear opinions before deciding to request the position. If I had decided I wanted even more opinions, I would have talked to more people. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 23:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) What steps would you take to ensure the community remains uninfluenced by such private and closed venues where the community can not suitably or appropriately assess need, necessity or content of such non-sensitive discussions? John (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, I did not start the conservation. I think this would be a better question for to answer. Maybe in the future we hold discussions like this publicly. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I asked explicitly what you would do. John (talk) 22:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I would make sure that if I start a discussion like this I do it publicly unless there is some reason it absolutely has to be private. This one probably could have been public. If somebody does start one of these discussions in private we can make sure not to come to a final decision until public discussion has taken place.

Support

 * 1)  Has both a good reason to request this right and it's already an IRC regular. OrangeStar (talk) 16:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  Diversification with trusted users that are also IRC regulars is wise.  MacFan4000 has proven to be both. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 16:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1)  Why does everyone want this right all of sudden? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 10:42, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just 3 people have requested this. I guess originally it was because there was only one group contact, now it's because there are no group contacts. OrangeStar (talk) 15:50, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The original reason was because as of late, the only GC, John has not been on IRC much as of late, and thus it would be good to have somebody who is active and available. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 19:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  I'm not familiar enough with MacFan4000 to vote on this one, so abstain. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Apart from being rather inactive on IRC compared to CosmicAlpha and Reception123, I also find them to be much more problematic both with being more personal and ruder. Also this person used op permissions for personal issues once (disclaimer: I was the target; but it was still a personal issue). Plus, if CosmicAlpha and Reception123's requests pass, there will be no need for FOUR group contacts on such a small project. Please stop this "trend". Naleksuh (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not at all inactive. I am usually available if you ping me. It is frankly disappointing that we are unable to move past previous mistakes which can be learned from. I will note that I made this request following an internal discussion. I will also clarify for other voters that I did not misuse permissions. I was a channel moderator at the time, (and still am). I decided that because of what was happening, a ban was needed. Later another moderator disagreed with the ban and removed. Another moderator had told me at the time of the ban, that they were fully ok with it. It also was not at all for personal reasons. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 17:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Internal to what? There's currently only one group contact. Naleksuh (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * A private discussion between Miraheze staff members (SRE, stewards etc). MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 17:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That's another reason then. I would like to keep groups seperate and have them simply do what they are meant for; not draw some sort of "line" or have a private club. This is actually one of the reasons why SRE are no longer called sysadmins and a lot of their responsibilities were broken up into elsewhere. If you consider these past actions mistakes that you have learned from, I guess that's better than nothing, but there is certainly not a need for four group contacts, especially picked from people who already do far too many other things Naleksuh (talk) 17:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  Similar lines above, permissions have previously been used to be push a personal opinion/side of an argument rather than acting in a neutral capacity. Response to the question I posted as well does not provide me much confidence that they'll act in the community interest as they accepted a private channel to exclude the community from initial discussions is okay where the membership of the channel is decided by those not appointed to manage such a channel bit rather by virtue of their roles in either community or non community environments. John (talk) 22:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That was a single incident. I have learned from that, and now would not make a such a ban without first consulting other moderators unless nobody else was around and it was extremely obvious that a ban was needed. I will restate though that it was not at all for personal reasons, from what I can recall, conduct was getting out of hand and discussions not directly involving me were getting heated. Once again it was not my decision to hold this conversation privately. I would always act in community interest.
 * Respectfully, I find this to be a misread of today's situation. While I believe I understand your opposition to the existence of private channels more generally, private channels do have a role in coordinating relevant sensitive volunteer actions - the use of one such channel was critical in preventing widespread panic during the November/December outages as internal volunteer discussions about recovery were underway.
 * Such a chat taking place in general channels during the incident would have been rife with interruptions, disrupted other necessary support conversations, and been prone to misinterpretations that would have further slowed progress/damaged trust in the Miraheze platform, though admittedly communications weren't perfect in spite of that use.
 * MacFan's 'acceptance' of the channel in question was unrelated to this specific request for GC, but was instead prompted by UO rectifying a long-term disconnect in bridging similar Discord and IRC channels that serve the same legitimate coordination purposes.
 * I do agree that brief discussion about "Hey, there's a need for more GCs, let's put this to the community to decide" probably should have taken place in general instead of a private channel, but the CN was viewed as the correct public forum to broach this for public debate.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 23:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would agree with NotAracham on this front. The use of private channels are employed in some scenarios when it comes to sensitive information, as NotAracham stated with the db141 outages. While that may have not been the case here, the conversations in question that were done in private channels and served as preliminary ideas. It was not as if the solution that came out of the discussion was to appoint 3 new group contacts without community input. The decision was made to ask for community input. The public has the opportunity to voice their opinions here, now. Just because conversations about Group Contacts were made in private channels does not mean that they were bad. Plenty of conversations are had privately for varying reasons. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I respectfully would disagree that the use of such a channel during the data recovery incident was useful. In my view (and SREs and the Boards), it contributed to a fragmentation of discussion and ultimately lead to the community being poorly informed and at times - misinformed about the situation. This was picked up by SRE and it was agreed that said channel should not be used in the future for such discussions. Therefore, I would argue the justification for the channels existence is moot if that's the primary example. John (talk) 23:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you proposing to delete/archive the channel? BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not explicitly making such a proposal - I'm merely pointing out that public discussions should be public and private discussions private - to channel appears to be used in a way to hide the public discussions at times and publicise the private discussions that should be private. I imagine if we audit the channel, a lot of discussions would either be acceptable to be public or would be deemed private and as such should not be in such a 'public' channel. John (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I imagine a review of conversations can be undertaken then. I would ask though for you to reconsider your oppose of MacFan4000. Other than that mishap, they've been an exemplary member in the Miraheze community and are trusted. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:47, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Stopping donation messages that appear in every wiki
how to stop

THEY'RE EVEN MORE ANNOYING THAN ADS

H A M 1 (talk) 20:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I believe there is no way to get rid of them until they clear them. All they are trying to get more money since domain prices have skyrocketed recently. They also don't get paid from companies for ads, and they don't want to resort to doing that. Sorry, that's all I could do, Commetiaa (talk) 21:05, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * They're needed unless you want to see full page banner ads :)
 * Once we get enough funds to secure Miraheze for the next year, they'll stop. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 21:17, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we should run them for longer. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * User talk:Agent Isai Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I donated a little bit of money, will they stop appearing for me? I wasn't particularly bothered by them, I was just wondering. Bonbonyoshi (talk) 09:44, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I think there are only two ways to get rid of them. One, you use the method above your comment, and use those steps; or just wait until they have enough money for the next year. Commetiaa (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * i thought that domain prices tetrationally skyrocketed in a single day (early march) H A M 1 (talk) 17:32, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

How to move forward from the "old-boys club"
Hello everyone. As you may know, the private club issue is one that has been going on on Miraheze for a very long time now. I am not the only one who has noticed it, many people have including the founder of Miraheze.

There is a continued issue of using Miraheze private platforms for discussions and treating them as consensus, often times either without a basis in policy for doing so or even opposite that (i.e. "consensus among administrators for X" which is an oxymoron because the purpose of sysops are to answer to the community).

It may be possible to simply note in policy that consensus which was not held publicly on-wiki is not consensus, and is nothing more than the actions of one person. An advisory to simply not have these discussions or release them on-wiki may also work.

The problem though, is that these are not discussions of a specific group, but rather just anyone in a so-called club. For instance, ridiculing someone for not knowing that examples of abusive messages from an IRC op discussion had come from someone who was not an IRC op. Even though they had no reason to be there.

The issues with pile-on attacks include:
 * A user who blamed software failures on one specific wiki creator, citing a message that did not happen (even if it did happen, software bugs are software bugs and this does not mean an unpaid volunteer doing their job should be put on blast including to new users)
 * An RFC on how to archive a thread on one specific person's talk page (not how to archive threads on talk pages in general, just one specific person's talk page)
 * Multiple people noted in this discussion that it bordered on harassment
 * More recently, the IRC issues including:
 * Incivility, targetted attacks, and name-calling (VCP violations), including from a current global sysop
 * When asked about it on-wiki, rather than apologizing they chose to repeat the insults. I did not respond to it because it was disrespectful and not to involve myself in VCP violations that I assumed would soon be cleaned up, but it has simply sat there because Raidarr is not me, this leads directly into the next issue:
 * Creating a pseudo-whitelist of users who are allowed to violate the VCP

This morning I was informed by user John that he wrote to the Board about Zppix's consistent and targeted harassment against [me]. The issue is, it is not just Zppix. While Zppix does have a history of this as seen in their user rights log, it doesn't solve the problem for anyone else nor does it address the overall issue.

I see multiple ways to solve this issue:
 * Limit private channels to those who actually need them (i.e. anyone under NDA)
 * Right now there are a bunch more channels such as ones for wiki creators and CVT. And there are people running around in other ones. Apparently I was supposed to know that the messages out of a chanop discussion were written by someone who wasn't a chanop.
 * Restrictions on citing private discussions for public actions
 * This has been an issue both with power-users and cases by individual (i.e. see the page history of Miraheze Volunteers)
 * Removal of userrights for users involved with the private club
 * I opened an RfDS for Reception123, however most of the voters simply said "Reception123 didn't say the things that Zppix said, Zppix said the things that Zppix said" without addressing anything else in the request
 * This makes me concerned people in the so-called club will simply back up each other, resulting in this going nowhere.

Worsely, there has been a continued attempt to protect this group. For example, when evidence of harassment was posted by the user asked to review it, a removal of permissions request was started for that user. No, not the user who said the harassing messages, but removal of permissions for the user who brought them to light. And moreover, for ONLY that person, with no action against anyone else. For this reason, I have created two seperate sections, with the involved users section coming second.

Discuss what you think of these ideas, or, come up with your own. Naleksuh (talk) 17:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved users

 * 1)  Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 19:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What exactly are you supporting? This invites critical thinking with several paths of travel. --Raidarr (talk) 21:01, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "I see multiple ways to solve this issue" Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * And what are those ways? BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 03:19, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * They are listed by Naleksuh. %+Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What are the ways you support? You seem to be supporting nothing right now because there's no rationale attached to your support message. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 04:21, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  I find the way the proposed discussion is framed to be very problematic and can't/won't engage further with it for that reason. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments by involved users

 * 1) Just to be clear here, facts are not moral judgements. Facts are facts. Saying that you are the most willfully ornery user on the platform is a fact. You constantly are rude and disrespectful to countless users. Raidarr did not violate the VCP in that case by calling you out, just like I am not violating the VCP by calling you out. If you consider everything directed at you that is not the most respectful thing in the world, then you need to reconsider what exactly your thought process is. Miraheze does not function without civility, and you have shown no ability to do that. Again, I am not violating the VCP here by calling you out. A fact is not a moral judgement, it is a fact. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 18:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you wish to comment on the fact that volunteers in the subject channel have harassed users? That is afterall a fact as well. John (talk) 18:41, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I've been told before that I shouldn't speak about Nale's behavior when he's talking about someone else as it looks like people are ganging up on him, but this is not about what he says to any particular person, but more about his general pattern, and, more recently, John completely believing everything Nale says.
 * This started after Nale wrote an email to John falsely claiming that he has been "harassed" and "gaslighted" in the server (Merriam Webster defines "harass" as "to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct" and "gaslight" as "to psychologically manipulate (a person) usually over an extended period of time so that the victim questions the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and experiences confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, and doubts concerning their own emotional or mental stability" - keep this in mind).
 * Nale has never been "gaslighted". He accused Agent of gaslighting him when Agent said that a message was posted in the wiki creators channel telling everyone to not approve wiki requests until a bug is fixed, not long after which he mass-approved every open wiki request and falsely claimed I told him to do it. It turned out the bridge bot had a bug - I never knew bots could gaslight someone.
 * I also do not recall any instance of somebody creating an "unpleasant or hostile situation" for Nale. If anything, my first interactions with him when I was a new user felt unpleasant and hostile (these situations come to mind, but there are others: "You're the one being an asshole" directed towards me after he mass-approved wiki requests despite being told not to and "OK, I don't care what anyone else says. This is Dmehus all over again" when NotAracham wanted to change where the bot welcome messages are placed).
 * However, as a result of Nale's false accusations, John - without consulting anyone else for their side of story - leaked messages that he was told not to post publicly and misattributed the author. He claimed that Reception123 wrote messages written by Zppix and claimed that Nale was being "harassed" in private - however, I do not understand how someone can be placed in an "unpleasant or hostile situation" because of private messages that they were never aware of and that were never acted on. Collei (talk) 18:49, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't believe everything Naleksuh tells me - why do I need to when I have been given the logs from the Discord server that shows Zppix making numerous poor attempts as humour over the course of years. Naleksuh has never provided me with something that I took at face value - in fact I've usually known about things before Naleksuh has even bothered to reach out to me as I have been active in the community for several years. The conduct at the very least breaches the VCP for 'Be Respectful' as do you think it's respectful to spend years threatening to ban a user, telling people to delete them from the database, excluding them from discussions because you have the power to do they besides everyone else telling you not to? You are funnily enough taking what people tell you at face value without having the evidence to back it up.
 * "John - without consulting anyone else for their side of story" - I've spoken to people involved for years, I know their side of the story. I've overseen complaints about this conduct before, just because I didn't ask to speak to someone the other day does not mean I've never done it.
 * "leaked messages that he was told not to post publicly" - no one has ever actually told me that. This isn't covered by my NDA as well so I had the right to post them. If people didn't want these being public, they should have said them a private venue, not a known semi public one.
 * "and misattributed the author. He claimed that Reception123 wrote messages written by Zppix" I never said Reception posted them. I asked him his opinion on the anonymous comments.
 * I'd advice you get your facts correct before trying to disprove mine. John (talk) 18:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't believe everything Naleksuh tells me - why do I need to when I have been given the logs from the Discord server that shows Zppix making numerous poor attempts as humour over the course of years. Naleksuh has never provided me with something that I took at face value - in fact I've usually known about things before Naleksuh has even bothered to reach out to me as I have been active in the community for several years. The conduct at the very least breaches the VCP for 'Be Respectful' as do you think it's respectful to spend years threatening to ban a user, telling people to delete them from the database, excluding them from discussions because you have the power to do they besides everyone else telling you not to?
 * Nobody threatened to ban Nale, drop him from the database, etc. They were messages in private by one single user that were never acted upon. If you had evidence that these were actually acted upon or sent to Nale, it would be different. Maybe the humor would be more understandable if Nale was calling you an asshole, attacking new users for violating the "freedom" of readers by restricting a wiki to one skin, comparing NotAracham to Dmehus, attacking SRE for using hCaptcha, getting absurdly angry for BrandonWM closing a testwiki discussion, etc.
 * People never exclude Nale from discussions. However, when Nale acts uncivil, annoying, and rude to both new and experienced users, everyone dreads discussing with him anyway. I hate having to talk to him on Discord. The slightest disagreement with him will become a multiple day argument. It is exhausting.
 * You are funnily enough taking what people tell you at face value without having the evidence to back it up.
 * I am speaking from my own experience, not from anyone else's. Nobody told me to write this.
 * "leaked messages that he was told not to post publicly" - no one has ever actually told me that. This isn't covered by my NDA as well so I had the right to post them. If people didn't want these being public, they should have said them a private venue, not a known semi public one.
 * To quote the channel description: "this chat and things said here should usually not be mentioned outside of correspondence with its members."
 * I don't care about the NDA. That doesn't make it right. In fact, most forms of outing personal information are entirely legal and not in breach of any law or NDA.
 * "and misattributed the author. He claimed that Reception123 wrote messages written by Zppix" I never said Reception posted them. I asked him his opinion on the anonymous comments.
 * The context they were posted in most certainly made it sound like they came from Reception123. Nale even started a demotion proceeding against Reception123 based on them. Collei (talk) 19:08, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "Nobody threatened to ban Nale, drop him from the database, etc." Go back and read the comments I posted - that's exactly what they said? At no point have I ever said Naleksuh's actions have been acceptable - but volunteers are held to a higher standard - so surely they should y'know be held to a higher standard like policy says?
 * "I am speaking from my own experience, not from anyone else's" - and so am I, so what's the problem that we have two different experiences where I've been privy to the full messages, the context, working with people, and you have not.
 * "entirely legal and not in breach of any law or NDA" - so we agree that this isn't illegal and didn't breach the NDA. I may have violated trust and breached policy - but I did it to ensure those who harass people and breach the policy more severely can't get away with it. John (talk) 19:18, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Go back and read the comments I posted - that's exactly what they said? At no point have I ever said Naleksuh's actions have been acceptable - but volunteers are held to a higher standard - so surely they should y'know be held to a higher standard like policy says?
 * I did read the comments. Zppix did not make a serious threat. They were sarcastic/humorous "threats", and Nale was never aware of them. Given that they were never acted upon and that Nale was never aware of them, they could not have reached the definition of harassment by Merriam-Webster.
 * "I am speaking from my own experience, not from anyone else's" - and so am I, so what's the problem that we have two different experiences where I've been privy to the full messages, the context, working with people, and you have not.
 * Actually, this is just the begging the question fallacy, because your evidence of me not knowing the context is just an assertion that I don't know it.
 * "entirely legal and not in breach of any law or NDA" - so we agree that this isn't illegal and didn't breach the NDA. I may have violated trust and breached policy - but I did it to ensure those who harass people and breach the policy more severely can't get away with it.
 * I quite frankly do not care about the law. Law does not equal morality. Collei (talk) 19:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Can we both cool it please? Aggressive disagreement isn't bringing us any closer to resolving this issue. I'll not be making any comments regarding any user's conduct at this time. However, I will say that I'm heading a discussion regarding the future of the private channel. I fully intend to wind down any official use of the channel, but note that it will likely be retained as a location for off-topic discussions or as a place of last resort for matters that don't go under NDA, but also don't belong in public.
 * In regards to other matters brought up by the original post, "Restrictions on citing private discussions for public actions" is something I wholeheartedly agree with. If your edit is reverted please open discussions instead of reverting further, even if you are right. -- Void  Whispers 21:09, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll try to be more respectful, but I did not think that was disrespectful. I am exhausted with what Nale has put me through here.
 * Please also note that I got permission from Raidarr before posting my original reply here, to make sure it is civil. Collei (talk) 21:21, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I recall you sending me an initial message and agreeing that wasn't uncivil, but I don't see it here and at any rate I by no means reviewed what this turned into. I'm coming from the other side of the fence and I'd have to agree with John the way its being argued. I will reference both sides of 'private' vs 'whistleblowing' when I get to a response which is looking like I'll get it out either late today or tomorrow. --Raidarr (talk) 08:44, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I recall you sending me an initial message and agreeing that wasn't uncivil, but I don't see it here and at any rate I by no means reviewed what this turned into.
 * It is my original reply here. I never said anything about you having reviewed what this turned into. Collei (talk) 05:31, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * In response to your original query to me, I am aware that some users have harbored feelings against Naleksuh in that channel. However, I want to note all that Naleksuh has put members of the volunteer team through. They also fall under the VCP as a wiki creator and Meta interface administrator. Users have used the channel to vent because they’ve not been able to do so in public channels, Naleksuh having frequented them up until their ban. to the best of my knowledge, having spoken with him, was not serious about banning users from discussions just because they can. It was simply venting about a problematic user, something that I’ve done multiple times privately and many others do too. While there may have been some frustration, there never was an intention to do any of the things that were said in the channel. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 21:42, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I second this. Collei (talk) 21:48, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  everything except for "Restrictions on citing private discussions for public actions". I am not involved, as I do not have access to the private channel, so I will post it here. Demoting everyone that has access to the private channel would demote literally the entirety of Stewards, CVT, SRE, etc. Aside from that, as I explained to you before (to which your response was "You're the one being an asshole"), you were partially at fault for mass-approving wiki requests when told not to (or at least when you were meant to be told not to - as has been explained to you, the relay bot broke). I acknowledge that it was incorrect to assume that you must've received the message, but you also falsely claimed that you were told by myself and others to get up at 10 PM to go through the wiki requests, when in fact the most recent message regarding it was NotAracham stating that several features on wikis that are currently being approved are broken, and to not approve any wiki requests until the bug is fixed. As for the other points raised, go down to the involved user sections where I countered those. Collei (talk) 21:28, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just a friendly note, I don't think the oppose/support templates are appropriate here. This is not an RfC, this is just a discussion. OrangeStar (talk) 21:30, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No, he offered a bunch of suggestions and wants everyone to "discuss what you think of these ideas, or, come up with your own". Of course, my reply will be seen "a continued attempt to protect this group", but I don't care. Collei (talk) 21:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There's nothing to oppose, though. Either you have ideas or you don't. There has been no vote for a single idea yet. I'm sorry that you don't care about how your replies are viewed, though it does raise the question of what good it will do. Naleksuh (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I am opposing your ideas. Your post is based on an underlying assumption that I would agree there is a problem to solve, but there is no problem to begin with.
 * I'm sorry that you don't care about how your replies are viewed, though it does raise the question of what good it will do.
 * I care how my replies are viewed if some logical reasoning is given to the replies. "Protect[ing] this group" is not necessarily a bad thing if people disagree with your interpretation of the group. Collei (talk) 22:01, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, what's your interpretation, then? John has shared his, I have shared mine, it could be your turn next. Naleksuh (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have already shared it. Please read the entirety of my replies. Collei (talk) 22:39, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, please just leave this blurb in the 'involved' section next time it's moved considering at this point you've gotten into some spicy and frankly unwise, muddled discourse on the topic. It's an arbitrary distinction and there is no point edit warring on the semantic: it's the trap discussions like these invite and only diminishes what value they might have had. As long as the comment itself stands it shouldn't matter which section it is dropped in. I intend to leave a full comment on this myself soon but I had to comment on this tangent as it has become quite off base including the discussion with John, which I frankly believe you should cease. --Raidarr (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, I understand. Collei (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) I already agreed that the group should be disbanded. My resignation from SRE that I chose to stick to came from a multitude of reasons stemming from the events leading to this discussion, conduct of some volunteers, and recognition of my own actions surrounding recent events. I never ever agreed, and never willingly or knowingly took part in any of the, for lack of a better word to think of, "harrassment" that took place. I don't know if I'd characterise it as harassment exactly, as it wasn't said to the person directly, and as far as I know, meant as a joke for the most part. It was however disrespectful. Because of the numerous issues that has occurred I have also removed myself my being active on Discord or IRC, pending resolution to the future of the group, whereas I would then return to IRC and Discord. The fact that we operated without any community oversight or accountability goes against the core principles that is transparency in Miraheze. This is just some of my thoughts here and I may add more thoughts later, but I think it is very important that we be able to move past this in a more transparent way in the future. I don't agree with how it was put out to the community whatsoever, but I do think it's important for us to have community accountability and be respectful to all of our users regardless of their personal opinion on them, whether directly to them, or somewhere they can't see. I still however hold a very strong belief that if this went through proper channels, or even attempted to resolve between involved users, instead of posting a private chat, here, publicly things would have been a lot better, and we could have disbanded the channel anyway without the need for recent events. That is why I posted the revocation for John's Stewardship, because the way it was handled was unbecoming of the standards I had previously thought John was of.  Either way, I just feel Miraheze is so highly prone to drama, I have not regretted my decision to resign from SRE at all so far, and it allows me to attempt to focus on the community and rebuilding trust and transparency between all the core groups of Miraheze. My hope is that eventually things can move completely beyond these recent events. Universal Omega (talk) 09:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So, are you agreeing with the issue of an old-boys club? My concern in this discussion was people acting like the only harassment was Zppix's messages and nothing else, when infact there is a continued pattern of problems of targetting of pile-on attacks. Second, why do you say that you want more publicity while also saying John should have resolved it privately? Already by default it's a weird look to RfDS the person bringing to light abusive actions by another user, but with no proposed action for that user: this is a lot like trying to protect user 2. So, is it public or private? Can it be both? Naleksuh (talk) 17:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree there is an underlying problem. I also agree with transparency, but I think John should have at least talked with the users involved privately before posting publicly here. Not necessarily to hide it but to try and get the full context instead of posting things out of context here. I do not however agree that everyone even in the channel should have their rights revoked, as that would include most of CVT, and the entirety of Stewards, T&S, SRE, and the Board. Not everyone was involved in any sort of issue in the channel. And not everyone agrees with how things were treated. The channel should be disbanded but to say everyone should have rights revoked is wrong. Unless I misinterpretated what you meant by "Removal of userrights for users involved with the private club". But if that is what you meant, that is not even feasible for the continuation of Miraheze whatsoever, as it would effectively remove all advanced users in the core groups. To propose all be removed is absurd. Not even to protect members involved, but it just can't be done. I won't even try to defend myself or the group here, I know there was problems from users, I, and others could have been more vocal against it earlier, or even joking about such things, since like I said I never agreed with it. So I myself admit some wrongdoing in how a lot of things were recently handled. But how John handled things was no better. Things could have been talked about or confronted privately and then forwarded to the right channels immediately for reports. It was hardly necessary to post them above on something entirely unrelated, especially since at least from my understanding he has had them for quite a while longer than now, so my question was, why post messages from months ago, now, here. That was an issue as well, and as I have always held John in higher regards then that, that is why it was too far in my mind and I posted the revocation. I regret how a lot played out, but I still feel John went way to far with that, and internal conduct other than that was still not great hence another of the multiple reasons I resigned from SRE, and am no longer active on IRC or Discord until a resolution regarding the group is reached and things can move forward. To not associate myself with that, or to say or do something that would only further create conflict or issues within Miraheze. Universal Omega (talk) 18:18, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) I want to state for the record, that prior to the GC discussion, I had no involvement in the channel. I wasn't in it until a few days ago. Before that, I didn't even know it existed. From what I can tell, it has been around way, way longer than I have known about it. The leaked messages were also from discord from what I'm told, which I do not use, and I do not participate in or see anything that happens solely on discord. I believe that revoking rights from Reception123 or other users is 100% unnecessary. No doubt, mistakes were made, but this does not at all warrant removal of rights. I do believe that the channel will either be abandoned, or else its use will become fairly limited. My hope is that we can eventually move past these issues, and that Miraheze can continue providing services for years to come.
 * As an update, there was a conversation between the channel participants (no heavy involvement from me), and it has been decided that the channel will be abandoned. (Discord side will be archived and eventually deleted, IRC channel will likely get cleared out). MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 02:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "the" channel, singular? There are multiple channels being talked about here. Which channel do you mean? Naleksuh (talk) 02:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "The cabal" so to speak. (#miraheze-cabal). MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 02:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There is only one channel used by Miraheze volunteers for off-topic chatter. All other channels are strictly for role purposes and all messages in those channels strictly pertain to that. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 02:24, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * THATS A REAL CHANNEL??? I thought that was a joke! Yes that never should have existed but better late than never. What about the other channels though, that are just "non-NDA private channels just to be private"? Naleksuh (talk) 02:27, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There are none apart from things like the wiki creators chat or the CVT chat. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 02:29, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "The cabal" is a joke. I believe that Doug renamed it to "the cartel", but someone changed the name to "the cabal" later. I do not have the time to read any other replies. Collei (talk) 03:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The complaint originated by John is isolated to the single channel in question, to my understanding. I find discussion of the channel's contents and usual tone to be mis-characterized but attempts to defend its continued existence would be a misuse of the time of everyone here.
 * Role-specific channels (e.g. wiki creators, CVT) with a clearly outlined and limited purpose, which necessarily cannot be fully public in order to execute the duties of that role, should continue to exist. There are no complaints against contents of those channels (to my knowledge) and they are are necessary to support efficient function of those roles, though I'd invite suggestions for greater accountability of those channels if you feel that is needed.
 * Private off-topic channels, however, are just too much of a liability -- anything like what previously existed invites doubt and appearance of conflicts of interest, whether or not doubt is warranted.
 * I agree with the closure of the private off-topic channel (already mentioned by MacFan4000) as the only clear way to move forward from this chapter. This incident has also highlighted several policy gaps (and potential solutions) around volunteer well-being and resignation process that I hope will reach a positive outcome for stability of the project in the days and weeks ahead.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 02:59, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's particularly unusual for volunteers to discuss with each other in private. Twitter's Slack has an off topic channel, for example. When people work together, yes there will always be a place where they privately discuss or vent about off-topic things, especially when the volunteers get to know each other over time.
 * Yes, the messages were rude, but they were not harassment, and no action against Nale was taken due to their existence. Collei (talk) 03:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Which messages? The ones by Zppix? This discussion is about a much larger issue and a continued pattern of incidents. Also for the 2394872394823794823948723th time please stop calling me Nale. My name is Naleksuh. Naleksuh (talk) 03:32, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I did not re-read this before sending it. There will be some grammatical errors, redundant sentences, or words that I mixed up. I'm too busy to look through this.
 * Also for the 2394872394823794823948723th time please stop calling me Nale. My name is Naleksuh
 * I was never told that before, but I'll keep that in mind. It is not uncommon for people to abbreviate names. The name I go by in Grasscutters is  (referencing the Traveler x Collei headcanon in Genshin Impact), but people usually abbreviate it to  . I now know you prefer that I say Naleksuh, so I'll keep that in mind.
 * Which messages? The ones by Zppix? This discussion is about a much larger issue and a continued pattern of incidents
 * I've already talked about the stuff about blaming technical bugs on you. As for the RfC about how to archive threads on your talk page:
 * The way you described it, I thought it was on the Requests for Comment page or something. That certainly sounded out of character for Reception123 and generally the group you talk about, so I looked, and it seems that the supposed RfC was on the CN. What you are doing now is essentially an RfC about how to treat this "group". If Miraheze is run by its community, then yes, there will be discussions in public relating to established users.
 * And as for people that try to avoid you, single you out, or find you annoying: I don't think they should do that, but I also do not think that Reception123 (or anyone else, for that matter) needs to have their rights revoked. Naleksuh, you often say things that sound rude, and maybe you don't mean for them to, but over time, it makes you very difficult to talk to.
 * Rather than say "we shouldn't have added hCaptcha", you start a long discussion that felt like an attack towards members of SRE rather than the action itself. Near the time that you got banned from IRC, you were being annoying towards BrandonWM because of how he defined functionary. Maybe you don't mean to be annoying or offensive, but what you say does make people feel uncomfortable or annoyed around you.
 * Yes, I should not have said that I am biased against you. I should not have said something to the effect of "can you even read" when you mass-approved the recent wiki requests. You do have good ideas. However, the way you present them just makes people feel annoyed. I don't know a better way to put it than that. Collei (talk) 03:43, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This thread makes it seem like all of the mentioned events are part of a coordinated effort by a group to attack you when that is evidently not the case. There are far too many things to do and better things to spend time on so why would basically every volunteer devote themselves to persecuting you? Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:33, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Why have I been blocked?
I have been blocked on several wikis where I have never made a single edit, one is in Chinese, the other in Italian, both languages I do not understand. The reason in the italian wiki is that I posted meaningless content Inserimento di contenuti privi di senso, in fact I have not made a single edit in this wiki (why would I???). Lily talk and I will listen · Lilypond Wiki 20:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Possibly consult those wikis? Collei (talk) 20:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Also, I'll just add, if some are private wikis found using Special:WikiDiscover, (I have clicked on a few of these without realizing they were privte)... apparently once you land on one of these site's main page, it shows on their RC a new account being created. Sometimes the staff/volunteers of these wikis ban all usernames, thinking random people have access when we really don't (has happened to me on several private wikis), and just for landing on their **public** Main Page. I don't think they realize that we have access to view nothing else, and their banning is pretty much fruitless and silly, but it still happens regularly. If that's the case Lily, I wouldn't worry too much about it. For those where you've been falsely banned, I'm thinking you should be able to appeal on a user page and inform them of their mistake as Collei mentioned (depending on that wiki's settings)? | -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 20:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you; these are all private wikis, and they all have been closed. The bans just do not look nice im my user stats, otherwise I do not care. I think the admins do not know what they are doing, LilyLilyu - smile.svg talk and I will listen · Lilypond Wiki 20:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You're welcome Lily. :) I hear you, and I have thought the same of my own stats, but if anyone were to review the reasons for the blocks, they'd see we've never made edits in any of these communities. I suppose we could try to help educate these users on their meta/global user pages, though that's a lot of effort for something so silly! ;-) Cheers! | -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 21:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I realized I misread your earlier comment, the wikis are now closed, I see what you mean. In this case, I'd consider enquiring if these will stick on user stats after the wikis have gone dormant or are closed. | -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * By the time that they are actually deleted, they will no longer be in the database. Collei (talk) 01:03, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

ManageWiki help
How do I rename a permission group? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Edit your MediaWiki:Group- and MediaWiki:Group- -member pages. For example, if I wanted to rename the administrator group to "moderator", I'd edit MediaWiki:Group-sysop and MediaWiki:Group-sysop-member. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:16, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, how do I also change the internal name? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:41, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You'd have to delete the group and then make a new one with a new internal name. I wouldn't suggest you delete the administrators, bureaucrat, or autoconfirmed groups though as deleting those breaks ManageWiki and your wiki in general. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Could a rename option be added as a feature? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:07, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You can file a Phabricator task requesting it and we'll hopefully add it eventually. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 05:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Unrelated, but how does deleting autoconfirmed break MediaWiki? I already did that and nothing bad has happened. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:48, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * https://landar.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=5222 Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * All your users will now be subjected to the anti-spam global filters because the autoconfirmed group is the one which exempted them from that. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 13:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter. Only approved users can edit, and that group all ready has autoconfirmed permissions. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 20:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Special Signature
Hello! I would like to know how to have your name and signature different. I would like my name/signature to be, but when I put it as my signature, it gives me the code, not the picture. Also, is there a way to make a picture your actual user name? Or at least have your user name in a special font? I'm thinking about renaming myself Commetian Empire, with that font/picture. Thank you! Commetiaa (talk) 23:11, 20 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I strongly recommend not using a picture as your signature. Not only is there a risk of manipulation, but there is also a good likelihood that your signature will negatively impact loading times especially when you have multiple instances of your signature on the same page. Instead, as long as the font you want to use is commonly recognized by browsers (not sure how to check that at the moment), you can use some HTML formatting in your signature. Just be sure to check the box under your signature to have it treated as wikitext. For example, you could format your signature like: . Just note that not all fonts are available, and as I couldn't figure out what font your image uses, I'm not sure you'd be able to use it in your signature without getting the font imported for use in the site. --  Void  Whispers 01:19, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I looked where I got the signature, and the font is "Bilbo Swash Caps". I tried using your HTML, but it didn't do anything. So I'm guessing that that font isn't recognized here on Miraheze. Also, how do you (when you rename yourself) get your user name colored? I've seen it with multiple users like KumihoWolffey; but I've never found out how. Commetiaa (talk) 12:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Did you check the button below the signature in your user preferences? Treat signature as wikitext (without an automatic link to your user page) should do the trick --LilyLilyu - smile.svg talk and I will listen · Lilypond Wiki 21:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Sigh
Hello, it is me, Collei. My Discord account tag is Colleiflower#2020. My Discord has apparently been disabled for being under 13, but I've actually indicated that I am fourteen.

I find it more probable that the reason I am actually banned is due to me repeatedly indicating that I am unwilling to report underage users and due to me sometimes deleting messages where people admitted to being under 13, so that the people won't get banned. Another hypothesis is me lying about being over 18 to Discord so that I could view NSFW channels. I am not sure which hypothesis is correct.

I quite frankly do not care. I can get unbanned by holding up a piece of paper with my ID etc. etc. to verify my age, but I am not going to do that. I don't trust Discord with my personal information.

I have an alt that I can use to evade the ban, which I will do, but I am not going to be as active there, as to not get caught by Discord.

You may reach me on Miraheze and Matrix as usual. Collei (talk) 17:24, 21 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Furthering the second hypothesis, I received the following warning email from Discord:
 * Hello,
 * Discord is focused on maintaining a safe and secure environment for our community. We've found your account to be in violation of our Terms of Service or Community Guidelines. As a result, we're issuing you this warning for the following reason:
 * Your account posted content that sexualized individuals under the age of 18, or was involved in servers dedicated to such unacceptable content.
 * If the behavior continues, you may be banned permanently.
 * Sincerely,
 * Discord Trust & Safety
 * Collei (talk) 17:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think you should be admitting on a public noticeboard that Discord banned your account for what it was banned for, and admitting you lied about being 18. Raichu&#39;s Endless Nights (talk) 14:27, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, the 'sigh'... are you implying you're angry/upset at Discord for banning your account after you've just admitted you're the one who did something wrong? Why are you posting this? Raichu&#39;s Endless Nights (talk) 14:29, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I am upset at Discord, because I'm probably the first person on the site to be banned for that. The ban reason also makes no sense, as it explicitly claims I'm under thirteen. I am fourteen. The warning email I received also fails to indicate what it was referring to, so it could be anything I wrote. Collei (talk) 16:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Sigh! You were banned for allegedly sexualizing minors.  You are a minor.  Your various defenses are: (1) Others got away with it; (2) The ban notice made a clerical error; (3) There are other users they could ban also/instead; (4) You might have been banned for an omission (I doubt it); (5) If pressed, you could and would evade the ban.  You remind me of myself when I was fourteen!  Perhaps when you are no longer a minor, you will spend less time on technical defenses of misbehavior, and more time on establishing yourself as a person of good faith.   03:08 23-Mar-2023 03:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, try not sexualizing minors on main next time? Weird thing to admit to in public Chantolove (talk) 22:30, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It also might be that you have "sexual content" on your user page. (the Discord picture, it can refer to sexual content) So that be be a case. Just be careful! Commetiaa (talk) 13:05, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It also might be that you have "sexual content" on your user page. (the Discord picture, it can refer to sexual content) So that be be a case. Just be careful! Commetiaa (talk) 13:05, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Transferring temporary wiki to permanent domain
How easy would it be to make my wiki with one domain now and then transfer the content to a different wiki once I gain ownership of that one? (I am currently trying to reopen and gain ownership of deepwoken.miraheze.org) Heroku (talk) 20:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Probably more trouble than needed. I've reopened the wiki so you can edit freely now. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 00:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

How do you make a page editable by only Bureaucrats?
Hello,

My home Wiki is Liberty Center Schools Wiki, where I want to make a page editable by ONLY bureaucrats. I have tried to search through the Manage Wiki page and can't find it. How do I do this? There are also some other Manage Wiki settings that I would like turned on, like the ones on TestWiki. LC Developer (talk) 17:32, 22 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The highest level of protection in default MediaWiki is administrators only; however, you can create an abuse filter that prevents anyone without the "managewiki" right (which only bureaucrats have by default) from editing that page. Tali64³ (talk) 18:03, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Will do. LC Developer (talk) 18:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Tali64³: I know how to create an abuse filter, but what text do I add to it? LC Developer (talk) 18:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You can add a new level of protection to the wiki by making a few changes to the mw-config repo on GitHub, feel free to make a Phabricator task requesting this addition. -- Bukkit  [ cetacean needed ] 22:17, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's an example filter I made:

action == "edit"

& page_title = "[add your page's title here]"

& !contains_any(user_rights, "managewiki") Tali64³ (talk) 18:12, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

2Mb limitationof XML import
When you import XML into a wiki on Miraheze there's a message with: Please note that if the file is a bit large (~ >2MB) you will need to request an import as this cannot be done here due to technical limitations. Most imports into a wiki will be approaching or larger than 2 Mb, especially if because of CC-by-SA the XML includes all the revisions, e.g. an export of Pokémon from en.wikipedia, is 29 Mb. Wiki administrators should be able to import XML larger than 2 Mb. Rob Kam (talk) 12:45, 24 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I belive that the 2MB limit was put in place to prevent site instability. Imports over 2MB can be requested at Special:RequestImportDump. Tali64³ (talk) 12:51, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately there are timeouts when you attempt to import more than 2MB, there is no hard limit per se but trying to will almost always result in a timeout. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 13:45, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

DPL lists aren't working with navboxes?
Hey all. On my wiki I've been using DPL3 to make lists without having to type them out multiple times. This has been working great on normal pages, but when I try to make group lists in navboxes, pages will disappear from it when you view the navbox on that page:


 * The navbox template where everything is displayed correctly: https://ovenbreak.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:NavboxCookie
 * One of the pages listed in the navbox: https://ovenbreak.miraheze.org/wiki/Aloe_Cookie#Navigation
 * Aloe's page should be listed between Almond and Amber Sugar in the Epic group; it does appear in the template's page and on other Cookies' pages.

I'm pretty sure this has something to do with how links to pages you're currently on are replaced with plain text, but I can't figure out how to get around it. I've made sure that my DPL navbox template outputs lists in a way that should work with navboxes and I know that my previous navboxes displayed correctly with manual lists (https://ovenbreak.miraheze.org/wiki/Dark_Thunderstorm#Navigation). Should I keep working on this or should I just go back to manually typing out lists for navbox templates? Sorry if this is difficult to understand or isn't explained correctly. Soda Cookie (talk) 01:35, 26 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Think I know what happened here (as a DPL3 user myself): is missing from your DPL calls. --Routhwick (talk) 09:22, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ahhhhh this is exactly it thank you so much :D So glad I don't have to go back to listing things by hand Soda Cookie (talk) 19:10, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Trying to apologize for disruptive edits, sockpuppets and evasions
Hey. I have just been new to Miraheze, but unfortunately, I feel like I may not be deserved here because previously I have did disruptive edits on the AVID community (even I have been blocked by both Miraheze/AVID on Discord without reason before saying anything). I was also looked at by many users as a ban evader and a sockpuppet, but that was why I wanted to apologize even on DC before you all banned me from your communities and servers.

I am very sorry if this is the case. Yes, I was sock puppet-ing and evading in the past. It was three years ago, but it doesn't erase anything, most importantly not even on the Audiovisual Identity Database. Again, I apologize for it. Why won't AVID nor Miraheze unban me from Discord nor here however? I'm just terrified if that happens. But again, my sincere apologies. I assure it'll never happen again from here on out. DBrown SPS (talk) 07:03, 26 March 2023 (UTC)


 * This is a bit strange to me because it's not clear what account you had originally or exactly what you did. If you made sockpuppets en masse and evaded bans then it is no wonder why the ban/lock is in place: it would be technically permanent until successful appeal and this exchange counts as evasion, but depending how the appeal process goes that might be overlooked as long as you use this account responsibly for appeals only.
 * If you want to appeal a Miraheze lock you should make it clear who you were, what you did, and what has changed. You can find details and contact at the global locks page. You clearly aren't banned on discord as you were and to my knowledge still are able to post there unless you mean a previous account. Frankly you wouldn't have been banned there without doing something wrong there (platform locks don't automatically apply to Discord) and that appeal would be a different process. If you follow this process properly then it can all be 'water under the bridge' at a global Miraheze level.
 * Appealing at AVID and their discord server is a separate process to take up with them, although you should go through Miraheze before attempting to appeal there. If the appeal goes well for Miraheze then I can look into an appeal for you on AVID as well on the basis of clemency, they aren't petty and they will consider a well-formed sincere appeal. --Raidarr (talk) 12:55, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Using Ordnance Survey maps in Mediawiki
I am directing this towards Miraheze's head honchos and other volunteers. I posted back on 8 February but no one replied so thought I would ask again. Using maps is a substantial part of The English Lakes website and I'm not even sure if the semantic wiki maps extension allows for integration of other base maps like Ordnance Survey. So, my question is can Ordnance Survey maps be used in mediawiki and if so, is this something that Miraheze will even allow. Would most likely require specific plugins and an OS API key. I see these maps on various other walking related websites but nothing at all with mediawiki usage, very strange. Can someone please let me know either way so I can make future plans for the website, thanks. 14:41, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just bringing this to the attention of those than can hopefully provide an answer: Thanks.  10:38, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Stopping email spam from various versions of "I will help...."
I am getting a stupid amount of "Spam" emails from people who think I am selling a brand or running a business (my Wiki is for a historical society). They usually start with "I have looked (no you haven't) at your wonderful business site (can't you read then) and it needs improvement... I am a professional (what full-time village-idiot?) and our AI tools can .... blah, blah....". Is there anything we can do about this, or just keep hitting delete?

2A00:23C5:CE07:1701:A52C:350C:33A:4F13 15:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Unless this is happening from Special:EmailUser, Miraheze really has no control over such things. If you've publicly indicated your email address in plaintext format somewhere that might by a reason for that. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 04:31, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki tag ideas
Hi everyone, Thanks to Joritochip we should soon be able to make wiki tags available as a complement to categories. Tags should not be as broad as categories but must also not be too specific/niche. The idea is that these tags will make it easier to identify wikis with similar topics. There will be 5 tags maximum per wiki.

The purpose of this thread is to invite all users to give us ideas for what wiki tags they'd like to see. Ideally there should be multiple wikis that would potentially use this tag. Examples of good tags: "TV Shows", "Minecraft", "Neighbourhood". Please let us know some suggestions for tags below! Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 04:22, 30 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Duplicating what I said in Discord:
 * adding tags
 * anime/manga
 * documentation/instructions (would be different from education)
 * reality (or a better sounding name; to indicate that wiki is about real people/events/world/etc)
 * fiction (if existing category "fantasy" is synonymous to it, I suggest to rename it since in majority of cases it's associated w/ magical fiction opposed to sci-fi)
 * sci-fi (per above, to separate from "fantasy")
 * suggestions
 * rename "fandom" to "fan wiki/encyclopaedia" to avoid association w/ FANDOM hosting and the broad term that isn't equal to "wiki"
 * remove "private" from category list and make it instead an automatically added label if user checks private wiki box + upon checking it category/tag dropdown gets disabled
 * support - turn existing categories into tags, essentially leaving only tags for easier appliance, for example if wiki fits better into two categories instead of one category and tags; per Joritochip
 * KatozzKita (talk) 06:20, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Are there any topics that aren't allowed to be discussed on Miraheze, even with appropriate warnings?
Hi! Just like what it says on the title, I'm wondering if there's anything that isn't allowed to be discussed here on Miraheze-- I'm currently setting up a wiki for a handful of games, but some of them include disturbing topics and I'd like to make sure that mention/discussion of them is OK, or if we should just keep things brief. I glanced over the FAQ, but couldn't see anything relating to it ^^;

Thank you for your patience!! Gavinom123 (talk) 18:00, 30 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The Content Policy outlines what types of content are and aren't allowed on any Miraheze wiki. As long your wiki doesn't contain anything that violates this policy, it should be fine. Tali64³ (talk) 18:22, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * As Tali mentioned, there's Content Policy, however you can't say that taboo topics are completely prohibited (examples - transgressive works like Lolita, events that happened in real life), just avoid overdetailed descriptions and use warning notice + general disclaimer, I guess. As long as harmful actions aren't glorified/encouraged mentioning them shouldn't cause a problem. KatozzKita (talk) 05:57, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Deleting invalid pages
I've got a page that somehow managed to exist with a lowercase title and I have yet to figure out a way to properly delete it. How do I do that? DarkErmac (talk) 23:10, 30 March 2023 (UTC)


 * That's actually very interesting. How did the page get its all-lowercase title? Tali64³ (talk) 23:34, 30 March 2023 (UTC)


 * It looks like this occurred because you changed the wgCapitalLinks setting in ManageWiki/settings. Have you tried disabling it again, deleting the page, then re-enabling it? Joritochip (talk) 23:35, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That did the trick. Thanks! DarkErmac (talk) 01:07, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

interwiki entries for 3 wikis
superwiki

smallvillewiki

dariawiki Remove  &

Thanks ahead! Ora &#38; D (talk) 14:23, 31 March 2023 (UTC)


 * This is now ✅
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 16:09, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Database lock??
When I attempt to edit my wiki I get "Warning: The database has been locked for maintenance, so you will not be able to publish your edits right now." There was not any warning of this and it does not appear to happen on other wikis. Why is this happening? (The wiki I am referring to is landar.miraheze.org) Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 17:48, 31 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Should be fixed now, for more details on what happened, see T10117 OrangeStar (talk) 18:02, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Decyclopedia is celebrating National Admin Day
If you're an administrator on any wiki, you know how hard being one is. To give people a sense of what it's like being an admin, I've given any user with an account some admin permissions on my humor wiki, Decyclopedia for this day and April 1st only. Remember to admin responsibly!

(Obviously, this is an April Fools' joke.) Tali64³ (talk) 21:47, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Gradient CSS/Subscribe on Wikis
1. Hey, I have been wanting to have my name in color, but I don't know how. I found out on another Wiki the coding for one color for your Username, but I would like to have two colors. Here is my Global CSS thing. How do you make it two colors without gradient? (The colors I would like are #00B1CB and #CC0000) I would like the first color to stop halfway. 2. Is there a way to have the "Subscribe" option on other Wikis; like the one on here? (MH Meta) And if you edit in the topic you are automatically subscribed to? I have been wanting this for a while, on the Wikis I run, since it's kind of awkward when you don't know when the other person you were talking to answered. Thanks! Commetian Empire (talk) 23:53, 31 March 2023 (UTC)


 * For #1, Just as you set your signnature before, you can go to User menu > Preferences. Look for the field with the "New signature:" label directly above it. In that field, you can do something like the following, wrapping your link text in HTML span tag styled with a bit of css:

Commetian Empire
 * Commetian Empire


 * For #2, there's also already a User menu > Preferences (Watchlist tab) option, under the "watched pages" section, to "Add pages and files I edit to my watchlist." I'd suggest looking through all users preferences to become acquainted with that is there, and enabling those you'd find useful. | -- FrozenPlum   19:33, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Add interwiki entries for companyball wiki
(1) https://companyballwiki.miraheze.org ★ Commander Xiaochan ⚡ (Talk to me for fun) 01:50, 1 April 2023 (UTC)


 * This is ✅ --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 16:02, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

RfC: Add ads on Miraheze
We do charity work around here! How many of you have spent hours babysitting others on the internet for free? I know I've spent countless amount of hours in front of a keyboard trying to get some internet brownie points. We should all get paid! Therefore, I suggest we add advertisements to all wikis. I'm talking about huge banner ads, in-line ads, sidebar ads, footer ads, ads that pop up when you click links, search ads, ads in your personal settings, ads on the login screen, ads everywhere! We should also sell personal data to Google and Facebook to cash in extra. From there, Big Brother will obviously take 99.9999% of the profit, as part of a convenience fee for facilitating this and everyone else can get the vast riches left over from that. It's only fair! [ April Fools! ] Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Support

 * 1)  As proposer  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  Yep, "huge"! |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 08:31, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 3)  Aditionally, we should consider requiring cryptocurrency payments whenever one edits the wiki. Edits of less than 250 bytes = 0.01 bitcoins, over 500 = 0.1 bitcoins, and over 750 = 5 bitcoins. I believe this will assertively transform customer directed collaboration and idea-sharing. OrangeStar (talk) 08:37, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 4)  Oh my Clearsight?! Why didn't we think of this earlier? Who doesn't love when you can't even edit a page, it's so laggy! I love it!!! I AM IN YOUR CLOSET HAHA (talk) 14:57, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) times  times  times . If we allow ads here, it only makes sense to let users advertise as well. Decyclopedia is celebrating National Admin Day! For today only, any user with an account has admin permissions! Don't miss out! Tali64³, the slayer of vandals (talk) 14:52, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 6) This is AMAZING!!! i love ads and we should add them in miraheze for the first time! The time is NOW  (talk) 15:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 7) Beware of the date! --LilyLilyu - smile.svg talk and I will listen · Lilypond Wiki 09:41, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Support

 * 1)  Ads make everyone smile! Ora &#38; D (talk) 09:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Support
12½. Strongest Suppose ++Raidarrr (dont @ me) 12:68, 1th April 20230 (ETC)

Comments
Please direct comments to noreply@undefinedmiraheze.org where they'll be answered in 1-3 business millenias.

Problem with a certain type of audio file
Hello. I tried to set up an audio file system similar to this one : But it only worked halfway, as you can see here : https://fiction.miraheze.org/wiki/Test The audio file does not work. Would you have a solution for it? My Common.css: https://fiction.miraheze.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css My Common.js: https://fiction.miraheze.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.js Thanks in advance. Darkrai18 (talk) 19:19, 1 April 2023 (UTC) Darkrai18 (talk) 19:19, 1 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Upload OggPlayer_play.svg. Rao (talk) 19:38, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Rao Is it a file? Where do I download it? Darkrai18 (talk) 19:44, 1 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Important addition, it's a script taked from FANDOM's dev wiki - https://dev.fandom.com/wiki/OggPlayer
 * I suspect it's tied w/ FANDOM's own audio player and has to be fixed to work w/ TMH extension, but I don't know, maybe it's something else. KatozzKita (talk) 20:50, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @KatozzKita I don't really know much about code so I'm waiting for other opinions. Thanks anyway. I'd like to point out that it worked halfway through, so I don't think all is lost. Darkrai18 (talk) 20:53, 1 April 2023 (UTC)