Requests for Comment/Lower requirements for global Interwiki administrator

Global Interwiki administrators are users with the ability to edit the local interwiki table of any (public) wiki. As of writing, in order to be one, you must not only be supported by users here on Meta, you must also meet 3 prerequisites:
 * 1) Have at least 1000 global edits.
 * 2) Been on Miraheze for at least 2 months.
 * 3) Been involved in some way on community matters.

It's no secret that I don't care about edit counts, so I'm already biased against such requirements.

First, 1000 edits is insane: Think about it, I, an editor who has edited almost everyday since joining, am not eligible for this role. As of writing, I have 922 global edits, and I bet if you were to analyze my edits, you would find out that the only reason I'm even close to 1000 is because of how translations work, in that every edit when translating is in reality 2, as every time you edit a translation you edit both the translation and a translation unit in the Translation: namespace (Special:EditCount/OrangeStar).

Second, the necessity of such a requirement is questionable at best: For example, such requirements don't exist for roles like Administrator in Meta (arguably a role that has more potential for misuse that interwiki-admin will ever have), yet you won't see any newbies in that role. The reason for this is that the people that vote in these requests for permissions already oppose requests from those that don't participate in the community, or that they don't know, which are, I suppose, the reasons for requiring such a high edit count in the first place. OrangeStar (talk) 14:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Proposal 1: No edit count requirement
The first and only proposal is to drop any edit count requirement for this role. The other 2 requirements will remain, so if this passes, any editor who has been in Miraheze for at least 2 months and "been involved in some way on community matters" can request global Interwiki administrator. OrangeStar (talk) 14:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Support

 * 1)  as proposer. OrangeStar (talk) 14:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  Reasonable. Ora &#38; D (talk) 16:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Per Agent's comments.  I think generally it's very difficult to determine whether someone is trustworthy enough to be appointed in a role. Especially with interwiki administrators, how are we really supposed to know they're trustworthy? Perhaps an acceptable compromise would be a higher threshold (maybe 90%?) to bypass the edit requirement or alternatively a reduced one, but I would not think eliminating it completely would be useful and it would likely lead to users easily getting interwiki admin because it would be perceived as a role which doesn't require that much trust. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 15:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * We can never know with full certainty, but if there's something that will not tell you how trustworthy someone is is definitely edit count. Just look at the example I gave in this RfC, I have almost 1000 edits partly because I make translations, and I think no-one would call someone who only has 1000 edits via translations (as opposed to participating in all the various noticeboards in addition to translating) trustworthy. OrangeStar (talk) 15:46, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * That's why edits aren't the main criteria but are an additional safeguard. It could also be said that it shows that the user is willing to spend their time on Miraheze meaning that it's less likely they would "go rogue" and for example post a malicious link as that would pretty much give them a negative reputation in the community. --Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 16:24, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the 2 months requirement already does that. It proves that they've been here for a while, and obviously those who have 2-months old accounts but none or almost none edits are going to be opposed because people don't know them. In fact, if i had to pick something to determine if a given candidate is trustworthy is seeing their comments and opinions on RfCs, RfPs and what not. It says much more about a given individual that account age, edit count and whatever other metric could ever say. OrangeStar (talk) 16:54, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Having seen so many permission requests, I wouldn't be that certain that someone who is around 2 months but only has a few edits would be shot down, once again because interwiki administrator is viewed as a permission that doesn't require a lot of activity or experience (which it doesn't, but it requires trust). As for the comments part, I fully agree but as I say the whole idea of the edit requirement is just a safeguard to prevent someone who appears to be trustworthy or a "nice person" to be rapidly made interwiki administrator. The reason why it isn't the case for Stewards or Global Sysops is because there the community sets a high bar already. I will admit once again that maybe 1000 isn't the right number and I would, for example, agree to lower it to 500 but I wouldn't want it completely eliminated in order to allow a user with very few edits who makes themselves seem trustworthy to become interwiki admin. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 18:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Let's say an untrustworthy user gets interwiki-admin rights. So what. Remove them and move on with your life. The only thing this group does is give you the ability to edit interwiki tables. About the most scary thing it can do is use scary transclusion, which doesn't actually leave any damage in the wiki at all, and about all it does is a more inefficient version of trolling with CSS, which they can already do by just... editing an article. If they are abusing this right, just remove them and that's it, no-one reasonable will oppose an interwiki-admin being removed for obvious abuse. Wikis we're built from the beginning with the idea of people and bots from all over the Internet editing articles, and the idea of being able to revert to a specific version of an article. This includes the interwiki table. OrangeStar (talk) 20:54, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * In that case you could argue the same for every group but I think people prefer to know they can trust someone rather than just hope they won't need to be removed, and why should we risk even minimal damage being done (i.e. users being sent to phishing websites)?. The reason why interwiki admin exists as far as I'm aware is due to the fact that malicious links could be added and then presented as wikilinks by administrators or bureaucrats. Otherwise, I can't deny that there hasn't been a debate as to whether interwiki administrator should exist at all. I'm not saying I'd necessarily support that but as long as we preserve the group I stand by my arguments. In the future I would also recommend that you try to present a draft of an RfC or at least discuss with a few other users before as there may be other ideas and compromises (as you can see in the comments) that can be presented as proposals. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 06:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Per above. I also think that the edit requirement should be lowered. --Blad  (talk • contribs • global) 20:34, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) per above. However, I would also support lowering the edit count (maybe 500 or so should be enough). Tali64³ (talk) 00:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 3) per Reception123's comments, along with Agent Isai's. I would support lowering the edit count within the 600-800 edit range, but as of right now, that's all I would consider. I get why the proposer thought this would be a good idea, as it sounds like something I would've proposed, but too many users have abused this position. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 04:04, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments

 * 1) Interwiki administrator is a role of much less experience and competence, unlike Meta administrator. We don't impose an edit requirement on Meta sysops because it's very unlikely the community would vote in someone who perhaps doesn't have that much experience or competency required to handle situations. On the other hand, Interwiki administrator is much easier to obtain than Meta sysop despite it being an actual global role. We have had abuse in the role before and we've certainly had users who are the poster child of WP:CIR in the role. I don't think dropping the edit requirement would do us any good to be quite honest, it would only allow even more unqualified candidates to apply. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 15:02, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Your comment would only convince me if the community that votes for local roles and the one that votes for global roles were different, which is obviously not the case, they're both the Meta community. Just as it's unlikely for randos to become sysops, it's equally unlikely that randos will become interwiki admins (randos meaning unknown to the Meta regulars), the archives of Requests for global rights is proof of this. it would only allow even more unqualified candidates to apply then vote against them. Global Interwiki admin is already an obscure role that relatively few know exists, let alone apply for it. The last person to become one was Bukkit (who retired) back in September this year, and before them it was... yourself, back in September 2021. With the exception of Ugochimobi, the other interwiki admins are all either Stewards or SRE, who obviously have a lot more things to do than process interwiki requests. My intention with this request, other than allowing me to run for interwiki-admin (COI detected) is to make the process of requesting rights more inviting to other users. The process for getting rights here is very similar to Wikipedia's RFA, which is infamous for a reason. I think dropping stuff like this will help make anyone who thinks they could help in this area make the jump to posting the request. OrangeStar (talk) 15:43, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Looking at the archives, there are a few randos/CIR users who have become interwiki-admin. It's so much easier for someone to become interwiki-admin versus sysop because the requirements are so much more lax. The reason our process of getting rights is similar to Wikipedia's RfA process is because historically, we've been very liberal about handing out rights like interwiki-admin, CVT, wiki creator, etc., and that has caused so many headaches to the community in the past in terms of having to deal with role abuse, lack of competency, lack of standards for enforcement, along with so many other things. I'm rather split when it comes to this. It would be great to have more users in roles but having the wrong users in them will cause more issues than staffing shortages could ever. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 16:12, 13 December 2022 (UTC
 * That's what the community is for, to vet candidates for advanced permissions to ensure only somewhat-competent people get rights. OrangeStar (talk) 21:07, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) While this distinction may seem to be not so clear this is the main reason for why we have edit requirements. The truth is, an interwiki administrator's job doesn't require as much discretion as GS or Steward, you just need to not add malicious links. For that reason, the main factor isn't necessarily to see how the user handles situations or responses to users but is really almost fully based on whether the user is trusted or not. The fact that a user has many edits (as I mention above) indicates that they have spent a lot of time on Miraheze and are unlikely to give that all away. I'm not saying the actual number of edits is ideal but I think a fixed requirement is also useful to prevent people from easily supporting users who may not be trustworthy. What stops someone from requesting IW after a few weeks then? The community is likely to be less careful with IW which has a very simple and clear task. --Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 16:24, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * What stops someone from requesting IW after a few weeks then? The second requirement, being here for at least 2 months. I think the community does a good-enough job of keeping away obvious trolls from advanced permissions. OrangeStar (talk) 20:58, 13 December 2022 (UTC)