Requests for Comment/NordVPN

Following the recent Board of Directors' Meeting on March 12th, a proposal was discussed regarding a partnership with NordVPN. At that meeting, there were expressed concerns that entering a partnership as an affiliate and providing a link to users in a semi-prominent place would border on violating Miraheze's "ad-free" commitment.

Therefore, the Board have passed the decision onto the community to make, and to suggest how to implement the promotion of a partner without violating any of the commitments Miraheze makes. Thank you, Owen (talk) 19:12, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

The original proposal to the board can be found on etherpad.wikimedia.org

Enter Partnership
The Miraheze Community does not feel entering a partnership with NordVPN violates Miraheze's 'ad-free' commitment.

Support

 * 1) as person who proposed the idea to the Board Zppix (Meta &#124; CVT Member &#124; talk to me) 21:13, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) this was a hard decision to make and it is because I do not like the wording of the proposal. I have decided to support the proposal because in the first place what is proposed is not an "advertisement" but more of a sponsorship/partnership which is not exactly the same. My agreement to this proposal is also only if wikis are allowed to opt-in rather than opt-out. I mostly support this proposal because it does not look like Miraheze is doing very well with finaces and an extra place to get money would be needed.
 * 3) I do agree with what the Pioneer has said though and it does feel ironic and maybe even hypocritical that a site that bans VPNs would be promoting and partnering with a VPN service. While that part is an issue which originally made me lean towards no I think that Miraheze needs to concentrate more on finances rather than principles at the moment. Finally, if Miraheze does not force wikis to sponsor this service to me that means that it is not violating its ad-free commitment by making it optional. DeeM28 (talk) 18:31, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 4) I agree with all of the supporters. The Pioneer has a point, but overall this partnership sounds great to me. WickyHoney (talk) 16:42, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 5) same reason as worded out by User:DeeM28 Drgng (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 6) As long as the ads are not intrusive and do not violate the privacy of users (as some ads tend to do), I support the partnership. Miraheze could always use some extra funds. --EK ● 📝 ● 🌎 22:22, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) A partnership with a VPN service is very odd, given that we have NOP and ban tons of VPN/proxy for abuse and spam. Additionally, some, if not many, wikis do not welcome use of VPN because it can cause socking, block evasion and vandalism, even though it's not globally prohibited for registered users.-- 11:36, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) Per The Pionner.A promotion of a partner is an advertisement.Would be a violates of the "ad-free",and would promote spam.Many wikis would not welcome use of VPN,no only by socking,block evasion,vandalism and others,but too spam,something not acceptable for many peoples.Gustave London (talk) 15:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) . Rereading the proposition, I do "feel entering [this] partnership with NordVPN violates Miraheze's 'ad-free' commitment."  I state no opinion on whether we should decline this deal with NordVPN, renounce our 'ad-free' commitment, or edit the commitment to cover this case or codify limits on the practice.  See also below at Neutral.   00:16 24-Mar-2020
 * 4) This is the same company that pays for good reviews and had their ad banned from the UK. Also, what the fuck happened to no ads? If you want some ads to pay for the servers that's fine but how about regular ads instead of shady deals and borderline scamming. What's next, Miraheze Casino? Naleksuh (talk) 05:11, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 5) as it violates the ad-free commitment. KamafaDelgato021469 (talk) 18:33, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 6) An ad is an ad, no matter what you call it.  If they provide support of any sort and expect from a mention here to get increased revenue or even just increased awareness among a desired demographic, that is by definition advertisement.  -- Looney Toons (talk) 18:35, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 7) Parnerships are not evil per se but I found it hard to believe this is compatible with an ad-free environment and it would be better if it was someone who cared for a free internet without providing easily abusable tools.--Wedhro (talk) 18:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 8) I believe this would go against Miraheze's ad-free commitment, as this would be technically an advertisement itself. I also agree with The Pioneer's statement. I personally find it strange and rather contrasting that we would partner with a VPN service while also banning VPNs/proxies and having the NOP policy. I also think that this might indirectly help vandals, as VPNs can be used to keep vandalizing a wiki after being blocked. --LuckyTimes (talk) 22:02, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 9) . NordVPN isn't non-profit. Promoting commercial services is very different from promoting non-profit services and serve very different purposes. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 05:50, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 10) Using a VPN is a common practice of LTA.  Putting such things as advertisements is totally unacceptable. -- Schwarz ・ Talk  /  ウソペディア  07:26, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 11)  If you want a partnership with NordVPN, you want anonymous vandalism. Nieuwsgierige Gebruiker (talk) 08:28, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 12)  I do not necessarily agree with the ad-free policy but it would need to be revised before we agreed to anything like this. ~ El Komodos Drago (talk to me) 09:32, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 13) If we have to have an ad then I'd agree that having it in the footer would be a good place, I don't like intrusive or obstructive ads and it is for that reason that I use Miraheze. However, the reason that I am still opposed to the idea is that Nord VPN is for profit and a very big company. I fear that they may try to infringe upon the space that you have created here that would be dissagreable. Kiokurashi (talk) 10:34, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Neutral

 * A "promotion of a partner" is an advertisement for the partner and violates the "ad-free commitment." Would you provide details on this partnership?  NordVPN operates a VPN service that it would like to pitch to Miraheze users?  Does "providing a link to users" mean NordVPN is provided a link to users? or are users provided a link to (provided an ad for) NordVPN?  Perhaps the very partnership violates Miraheze's commitment, independent of the manner of its promotion, if it monetizes us.   00:33 22-Mar-2020
 * I have updated the description. Does that help? ~ RhinosF1 - (chat)· acc· c -  08:12, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does, thanks. It is an advertisement; a studiously unintrusive one (this time, in this implementation), but it is an attempt to monetize Miraheze membership despite nobly proclaiming that we don't.  Am not opposing as I don't expect anyone to work for free.  In contrast to the opponents above, I don't think it matters what we think of NordVPN's business.  (But take an ad from a politician I think is loathsome and I may decide you've taken sides!)   16:54 22-Mar-2020
 * I don't think the VPN itself is bad. Networks that are not censored by third parties are important for freedom of speech.The security of https encryption depends on the amount of computation required for decryption. (i.e. Since encrypted communication itself can be received, the discovery of computers with high computational power and high-speed decryption algorithms is a threat to the communication protection provided by https.)Therefore, VPNs that virtually create a "direct connection" are very useful from a privacy perspective.Therefore, I do not agree with the idea of ​​rejecting ads because it is a VPN provider.I agree with showing ads when sending passwords or when sending wiki emails.However, displaying ads in regular articles is the opposite.This is usually because the article is published, and we consider the contribution of the VPN to be small.What I just mentioned is based on the assumption that the ad was decided to run. I have no opinion about placing or not placing ads. Because I don't make any financial contributions to miraheze.--松 (talk) 09:15, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Implementation
Propose ideas for implementation should the above proposal be passed.

Assuming we decide to proceed with NordVPN and renounce or restate our 'ad-free' commitment, some issues suggested in the above discussion are:
 * Ads appear on Meta only, or on member wikis as well?
 * That can be dependent on what the community decides. but it would at least be on Meta if approved (atleast that is what i had thought in my original proposal to the board) Zppix (Meta &#124; CVT Member &#124; talk to me) 17:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Management of individual wikis has the right to refuse all ads? to refuse some but not all ads?
 * I think if anything it would be opt-in unless the community would decide otherwise. Zppix (Meta &#124; CVT Member &#124; talk to me) 17:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)


 * We seem to want any ad to be unintrusive (like a link in the page footer the user would click to read offers from Miraheze sponsors) (not like in-line display ads such as at Wikia). Would we state this as our new commitment?
 * I believe that would be up to the community and/or board. I do also want to clarify that I want this partnership to be as uninstrusive as possible, making it so the user would have to choose to interact with the "ad" Zppix (Meta &#124; CVT Member &#124; talk to me) 17:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Does the community vote on each new sponsor?
 * I think its up to the board, but I would assume so. Zppix (Meta &#124; CVT Member &#124; talk to me) 17:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Are there classes of ads we'd reject out-of-hand? (Endorsements of politicians?  Political advocacy?  Ads from companies seeking only to burnish their reputation as opposed to selling a product?)
 * I would hope we would keep any partnerships down to something that doesn't introduce a bias to person(s) or companies. However, i think partnerships with privacy-adovcating (sp?) things would be a plus. Zppix (Meta &#124; CVT Member &#124; talk to me) 17:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm...No advocacy, except for advocating my view  19:22 27-Mar-2020


 * Would we take money from a Miraheze member to promote his wiki (beyond mention in the Gazetteer of wikis)?  00:38 24-Mar-2020
 * No, I think I can speak for the Board when I say, Miraheze is, and always will be, free. Zppix (Meta &#124; CVT Member &#124; talk to me) 17:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I am afraid that this may cause a fork of users, similar to the Wikitravel/Internet Brands/Wikivoyage situation.
 * Are individual users allowed to opt out, by choice? -RH 05:35, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

License issue
As Miraheze allows each wiki to use CC-BY-NC and CC-BY-NC-SA licenses, which are both non-commercial, hosting ads on these wikis could be treated as a violation even if Miraheze as a whole allowed it. Therefore, I don't think it's legally acceptable if the community decides to host ads on all the wikis. These wikis must be opted out (automatically, if possible) regardless of the community decision.-- 02:11, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The licenses say “NonCommercial means not primarily intended for or directed towards commercial advantage or monetary compensation.” The primary used would still be for a wiki. If this was the case and “primary” wasn’t there, then there’d be a debate about how we collect donations from these wikis. ~ RhinosF1 - (chat)· acc· c -  04:16, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * What you say might be true, but still, it will make things unclear; say, what if a member of the board made a new page on one of such wikis, and it went popular among social media, resulting in a boost of ad-based income. No one can prove that it was not his/her very intention (even if the community, who knows him/her well, did not think so).-- 15:29, 28 March 2020 (UTC)