Requests for Comment/Allow exception to LP ban

Allow exception to LP ban
Greetings Miraheze community,

As many of you probably know, I am the sister of User:Lawrence-Prairies who has been Community banned for repeated disruptive behavior and spamming.

Over the past week or so, myself and User:John have been having email discussions back and forth about a possible exception to the ban. I don't like the fact that the ban on LP has been extended to cover myself too, because I have never been disruptive. The only real things that I have done on Miraheze is help out while LP was in the hospital back in December 2016. Furthermore, recently I have taken actions to stop the spamming by LP. I talked with the IT director at the apartment complex where we live, and he was able to blacklist certain IP ranges that were confirmed to belong to LP's specific apartment. This strategy appears to have worked, because I haven't seen anymore spam in the last few days.

You can see a full archive of the email discussions here. Note that one email is excluded because it contains sensitive information. (I included the email, but removed the actual sensitive data).

Given the above information, I would like to request that the ban on LP be directly modified to allow me to use Miraheze services, as long as I do everythign in my power keep LP out. I invite all users to comment on this, however Comments that contain personal attacks, insults, or other derogatory material will be removed on sight. I will accept negative feedback, but only if it is polite and civil. This discussion is to be moderated by stewards and not by the proposing/appealing user. Please do not remove the strikes. -Reception123

Proposal 1
I, Amanda, the sister of Lawrence-Prairies, herby propose the following:

Effective immediately following the closure of this RFC, the Community ban on Lawrence-Prairies will be exempted from impacting me, on the condition that I do everything in my power to keep LP out.

Support

 * Of course. Amanda (talk) 22:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Oppose

 * this is more of a "we can't go for highly restrictive to no restrictions" so quickly in my view oppose. John (talk) 17:23, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Per above. Reception123 (talk) ( contribs  ) 14:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Comments
What assurance do we have that the spam will not continue? Seeing that we have been spammed for the past 3 months since you have been banned, I don't see how can know that it will just stop now. I am also afraid that if something happens on your account that disrupts the community you'll use the excuse that "LP used my account" or similar. Reception123 (talk) ( contribs  ) 04:25, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't like the fact that this makes it seem as if I am the spammer, when that is not true at all. You have referred to the spammer as "you" as if you are talking to me. Also, for the record, LP never used my account. What happened is that LP somehow managed to compromise my DigitalOcean router. However, I have rest the router encryption key and reset the password to my online DO account to prevent this from happening again. You have to realize that I not only did not engage in spam, but I actually took measures to stop the spam. Amanda (talk) 21:39, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Note that you are not moderating the discussion. Trying to do that will result in your re-block. As said in your unlock message, if you edit anything unrelated to appeal, the original lock will be enforced again. Again, per here, your removal of any other's comment will also result in lock, again. &mdash; revi  04:34, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * No matter what, I will not tolerate insults or other derogatory comments. Amanda (talk) 21:39, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure, except that is strcitly speaking not our policy here. &mdash; revi  06:57, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 2
Effective immediately following the closure of this RFC, all accounts related to User:Lawrence-Prairies will remain blocked and banned and nothing will change.

Support
One does not need to be a professional writer to notice that the edits to this page so far by "Amanda" match edits to previous threads by "Lawrence-Praries" in style, tone, phrase choice, and subject matter. Some examples: The simplest conclusion to reach is that "Amanda" is "Lawrence-Praries", who is under permanent ban on this wiki farm. Maintain the status quo. --Robkelk (talk) 23:12, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * "Comments that contain personal attacks, insults, or other derogatory material will be removed on sight."
 * revi's comment under Proposal 1 that the proponent deleted a comment that he/she did not post.
 * the referencing of a Wikipedia policy as if it applies to Miraheze.
 * the use of "anymore" for "any more".
 * As pointed out below, this isn't the status quo. More so the status quo is a lot more damaging to Miraheze than an unban - for whom ever the target is. Further, the status quo wasn't a ban but a lock to the account in target only - not the "Amanda" account and so on. John (talk) 23:17, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * My apologies - I interpreted the statement "Their IP address should be globally hardblocked" in Requests for Comment/Community imposed ban on User:Lawrence-Prairies as a ban. --Robkelk (talk) 23:27, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * So, you think that two sisters who live in the same apartment complex aren't going to have similar opinions and similar writing styles? Insufficient evidence. Amanda (talk) 23:24, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * This goes beyond "similar" and into "identical". At this point, you're going to have to show me that "Amanda" and "Lawerence-Praries" actually are two people, and I have no idea how you would be able to do that. --Robkelk (talk) 23:27, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If you want direct proof, you should send me an email and I will email you a photo of each of us. Note that LP does not like having her picture distributed, so me doing this could open up a whole new personal firestorm that would take away my time from Miraheze. Amanda (talk) 18:45, 13 April 2017 (UTC)


 * You can't claim you're civil when you're saying incivil way. My full support here. (I am bothered to leave oppose to all other proposals, treat this as such.) &mdash; revi  06:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

. Per Revi on the diff situation + robkelk. The constant contempt that you/LP (if we are to grant you two are different individuals, which tbh I'm not feeling generous there) have for the most basic guidelines regarding holding yourself to any account or others to any decency. The fact that you're still trying to dictate how RfC's are handled shows you have learnt nothing.

BTW the reason we post "duplicates" is because they apply to various proposals. If you think you are getting the rude/insulting side of me, you really will like to take a look at how I handle this at Encyclopedia Dramatica; where we don't entertain this bollocks. I still remember that ShoutWiki you guys created impersonating Miraheze.

This is not even funny anymore. Why are we still talking about this? LulzKiller (talk) 16:22, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * We're talking about this because we need to move forward. May I remind as well, the original proposal wasn't a ban - it was a lock. One which doesn't cover a person but an account. As such if this proposal passes, it wouldn't affect the account Amanada. John (talk) 16:33, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * "I still remember that ShoutWiki you guys created impersonating Miraheze." - I must be missing something here, because I was not aware of any attempt to impersonate Miraheze. That must have been on the effort of LP alone, or (perish the thought) someone completely different just trying to have fun. I also don't like the fact that there is a repeated negative connotation with the word "you". Again, I have never been involved in any of the disruptive behavior. Also note that even if the original RFC was a ban (which per John it's not), the "ban" was only to apply to LP - not myself nor MatthewPW nor anyone else who happens to be related to LP. I actually have never been involved in Miraheze except covering while LP was in the hospital back in December. Amanda (talk) 18:45, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Oppose

 * the wording is poor. "banned and nothing will change" - the original RfC didn't actually ban so this would change the original decision. John (talk) 17:23, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * As John states below, technically only LP is banned. Neither myself nor MatthewPW are officially banned so in theory, we shouldn't even be here. I'm tempted to remove this entire proposal as invalid, but I won't in order to do my part to remain civil. Amanda (talk) 21:39, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Not opposing the idea, but even though I wrote this one myself the wording isn't too clear. Users that supported this can always make a proposal 5 with better wording. Reception123 (talk) ( contribs  ) 14:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Comments
We should have a conference call about this issue. Rsterbal (talk) 21:44, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I actually tried to call you once using the number you've provided multiple times, but when I called it said "this number is currently unavailable. The mailbox is full so you cannot leave a message. Goodbye". Amanda (talk) 21:46, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * - Please contact me by email - robert@sterbal.com or phone 412-977-3526 (call/text)
 * If you are concerned about giving out your phone number we can arrange for a conference call. Rsterbal (talk) 10:59, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
 * As noted above, I did try to call that number a while ago and got no answer, and an automated message saying that the voicemail box was full and thus I couldn't leave a message. Amanda (talk) 14:12, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 3
This is a clear conditional option - the wording below should be sufficient and clear enough to cover basics. (and since italics are popular apparently here.)

Effectively immediately following the closure of this RfC:
 * the community imposed ban remains as-is. Wording of the ban address the account "Lawrence-Prairies" only.
 * the account "Amanda" remains unlocked and shall be treated as a clean start under several conditions:
 * there is no disruption from the account (disruption is classed as spamming, abusive language directed at anyone else, harassment etc.) as judged by a Steward,
 * there is explicit agreement to the Privacy Policy and Terms of Use prior to the end of this RfC,
 * there are no other accounts used that can be connected back to the user without disclosure to Stewards and explicit approval from a Steward,
 * when using Phabricator, GitHub or IRC the user acknowledges they must listen and respect requests made by the relevant team that runs and operates the platform (sysadmins, sysadmins and IRC operators respectfully),
 * the user agrees to avoid badgering over the same issue over and over again (stewards, global groups etc.) it will be up for a steward decide whether it amounts to disruption above after sufficient warnings are given and not heeded to.


 * any of the above not being either a) agreed to by the user or b) violated after agreed to will see the unlock voided and a return to a locked account.
 * it will be noted the above (unless amended) does not prohibit gaining of rights such as administrator, bureaucrat, wiki creator etc., the creation of new wikis, contributing as a normal user to Miraheze, creating new RfCs for points that may be valid like policies and so on,
 * any amendments that may be passed in a separate proposal will be applied if this proposal passes,
 * this may be amended even after enactment of this RfC by way of a community vote.

Support

 * the ban previously imposed has done nothing. It has caused a lot more harm than was previous present, it has taken up a significantly larger portion of time than the ban was trying to reduce as well. On the best basis of assuming good faith for someone, this ban solves not but only makes things worse for everyone. A conditional-unban imposed on a user who was previously caused in hastily done blanket ban. On review of the initial RfC closure, it does not ban the user, in fact it doesn't even address this user's account in question. A poor original ban which has caused more trouble than it was worth has to be addressed either with this proposal or another one which actually makes a ban. Proposal 2 here states "nothing will change" yet changes the original decision. John (talk) 17:23, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Per below. Amanda (talk) 21:59, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Abstain
Not going to officially vote on this until my comments below are addressed. Amanda (talk) 21:39, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Comments
I would be willing to support this, as long as we are in agreement that:
 * On whatever new wiki of mine, I will have access to  all  features, permissions, and installed extensions EXCEPT steward, oversight, and checkuser (although I will have the authority to request oversight and/or checkuser rights if needed).
 * Niether stewards nor system administrators will take any technical action on my wiki without my explicit permission, unless an emergency arises. In this situation, technical action is defined as blocking, protecting, deleting, etc, as well as CentralAuth global actions and CU/OS actions. Violation of this will result in a block.
 * Both stewards and sysadmins will be allowed to contribute to the wiki as normal editors, but will be subject to blocks if they violate local policies while doing so. Amanda (talk) 21:39, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * In regard to point 1 you will have the same ability as everyone else does. This means all features not limited for technical or privacy reasons, no access to CU or OS until explicit policies govern their use and appointement (globally) or an appropriate valid reason with minimum requirements of a sizable community election. This is again, the same as afforded to everyone else - you will get nothing extra or nothing less than is expected/available of/to everyone else.
 * Point 2; this is the expectation of stewards and sysadmins currently.
 * Point 3; again, this is the expectation of stewards and sysadmins currently. John (talk) 21:50, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * In regards to point 2, I'm fine with it, so long as you agree to let Miraheze personnel access your Wiki's content, change your Wiki's configuration, and remove or modify content in violation of Miraheze policy, for the purpose of providing service and subject to our Privacy Policy. Labster (talk) 22:48, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Did you really just more or less copy-paste lines from the privacy policy directly? In any sense, I agree as long as config is not changed without my approval. I just think that a admin should be able to paraphrase global policies. Amanda (talk) 23:43, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * You say you will be "civil" but just a few hours ago you reverted a sysadmins warning and called it "crap" which I find unacceptable. The warning was legitimate and was not meant to "insult" you in any way. If you cannot be "civil" maybe not interfering on Meta should be added to this proposal. Reception123 (talk) ( contribs  ) 05:00, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 4
''Effective immediately following the closure of this RFC, the "Amanda" account will not be globally locked. However, Amanda will agree to not participate in any Miraheze affairs for at least 6 months, following the Wikimedia "standard offer" procedure.''

Support

 * I like this proposal and think that this is the way to go. After 6 months, what is written for Proposal 3 should be applied. Reception123 (talk) ( contribs  ) 14:26, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I think is a fair proposal and allows time for Amanda to spend time establishing and developing her wiki. I agree with Reception123. Borderman   talk 15:05, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Abstain

 * Not ideal, especially with the fact that SO generally applies to users who are blocked/banned (where I am technically not). However, I would be willing to do this as a compromise if proposals 1 and 3 both fail. Amanda (talk) 14:24, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Comments
I really wish everyone would just get along. I really would like to see this come to an end because I abhor all this community negativity, especially as Miraheze is second to none in it's field. Overall I believe has been quite accommodating so far regarding the emails and this RfC, and the Stewards and CVT involved in dealing the long-term abuse has been superb in swiftly removing foul-mouthed language and the generally damaging effects of what is quite frankly very immature behaviour in response for not getting one's own way. A decision needs to be made either way because far too much time has been wasted already on dealing with the negative actions of a single person.

Whilst I am being open (and this applies generally not to this specific proposal) if one sibling cannot request the other to just stop and move on from this whole debacle then the sibling doing all the damage obviously doesn't have enough respect for her sister to comply with those wishes. If one sibling has done all these things behind the other's back just to spite Miraheze, then make it look like the other sister's fault then she doesn't sound like a nice person at all. Sibling rivalry or any related issues do not have a place on Meta or any Miraheze wiki. That said though, if Amanda is allowed to continue then it should be done just like any other user who has to comply with ALL Miraheze policies WITHOUT any additional powers. This proposal seems fair to me.

I am not attacking your personally but you know how Miraheze operates. Please do not try to change it. You know the policies in place. Please do not try to apply conditions that personally favour yourself over others. If you don't like any aspect of how Miraheze operates then you really shouldn't be here. But maybe given a chance you could create a great website, which I sincerely hope establishes itself and grows into a resourceful wiki. However, and there can be no stipulation on this, if further disruption of any kind occurs (and this also includes repeatedly asking/arguing for something that Miraheze will simply not allow) then an unequivocal lock and/or ban should be put in place. I apologise if that sounds harsh but if you really do have a sister who has caused so many problems over the last few months, then she is clearly the root of the problem, not Miraheze for trying to protect against her incessant negative actions. Because of identical written mannerisms and vocabulary, plus your Digital Ocean hijacking etc., LP's actions have reflected badly on you, which is no surprise and you cannot blame members of the community if they do not trust you. Prove to the community you are a valued member by simply creating a great wiki. With time you may be able to garner trust and further support. Good luck. Borderman  talk 15:05, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I would also like you to be more clear on the "not participate in any Miraheze affairs" which is kind of vague. Does this mean you will not participate on Meta discussions as well as Phabricator? (you should be allowed to open tasks for your own wiki but not interfere in other tasks that do not concern you). Is this what you meant? Reception123 (talk) ( contribs  ) 15:25, 14 April 2017 (UTC)