Community noticeboard

Rename global Interwiki administrators group to "Global Interwiki administrator"?
Currently, the global Interwiki administrators group is simply known as "Interwiki administrator". This sometimes causes confusion as in name, there's no distinction from local Interwiki administrators and global ones. A user also recently asked me about this and whether the listing on one's CentralAuth of being an "Interwiki administrator" indicated they were one globally or on one wiki so the name itself isn't the best. We make distinction between roles such as a local sysop and a Global Sysop and local rollbackers and Global Rollbackers but seemingly don't when it comes to Interwiki administrators. As such, I propose that the global Interwiki administrators group be renamed to "Global Interwiki administrator" and it's group name be changed to "global-interwiki-admin," to match other groups like Global Rollbackers (global-rollbacker), Global IP block exemption (global-ipblock-exempt) and to provide further clarity about this positons reach. What does everyone think about this? Agent Isai Talk to me! 06:19, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see "global" as part of the name.
 * I was wondering about that in Discord support. Until I found this post, I thought that all local Interwiki admins could do something globally.  I actually rationalized it down to that these folks were volunteers who were willing to learn to do something most wiki founders aren't quite ready to learn to do for themselves... Imamy (talk) 06:41, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I would this as well, it's well within reason and makes sense to match. Thanks - BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 13:26, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds sensible to me. --Raidarr (talk) 14:11, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This change would remove ambiguity, easy . --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 23:20, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Collei (talk) 19:21, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with Agent Isai. --1108-Kiju /Talk 06:03, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * per above. by Buehl106·Talk·e-mail 06:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * --  Joseph  TB  CT  CA   14:47, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on community-run news wiki about Miraheze

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
 * Unsuccessful. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 00:26, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Per advice from a Steward, I'm opening this discussion on the possibility of a community-run news wiki about news involving Miraheze. The proposed wiki would include news involving Miraheze as a whole and major Miraheze-hosted wikis, with policies on writing articles in a NPOV and including references if required, so as to not violate the Content Policy. The wiki request for the proposed wiki is here if you'd like more information about it.

Below are sections for voting (support if you like the idea, oppose if you don't like it, and Abstain if you're undecided/neutral). Tali64³ (talk) 13:54, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Support

 * 1) as proposer. Tali64³ (talk) 13:54, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) I see nothing wrong with it, although I'm not sure if this needs a vote regardless, as it isn't an official project. Collei (talk) 19:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) I suppose? I don’t see an issue. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 00:45, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) An interesting concept. I think we should let it play out, see if administration is good there first, and if there are any issues that arise from it, have Stewards investigate and take further action as necessary. --  Bukkit  [ cetacean needed ] 01:04, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) This wiki running smoothly just has way too many ifs attached to it for me to feel comfortable supporting this idea. I wouldn't trust Stewards, let alone everyday users, to correctly determine if a particular case of user/wiki drama is news-worthy, cover it in a neutral fashion and source it properly. And that's without taking into account that even if all of the above are accomplished, there's still a good chance that making said drama better known only serves to exacerbate it. I don't want to be a Miraheze user in the timeline where this wiki gets accepted, becomes popular and suddenly you have a bunch of toxic users from up-to-now mostly self-contained wikis/communities jumping from one drama bandwagon to the next. - CabraComunista (talk) 19:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Another wiki creator expressed their concern about articles covering drama, and I decided to disallow it indefinitely if the wiki is created. However, that wouldn't preclude a community vote to allow neutrally-written articles on wiki drama in the future, if there is a demand for it. If articles about drama were to be allowed for whatever reason, there would obviously be rules preventing drama from speading to the wiki. Tali64³ (talk) 20:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  per above
 * 2)   While I think such a concept could work, after thinking on it a bit longer I perceive a great risk for magnification of a particular on-wiki drama by well-meaning contributors with insufficient judgement -- the risks of amplifying problematic behavior and inspiring bad behavior "to make the news" outweigh the benefits.  As the original party involved with the request, consider this vote struck if it would be a deciding vote in the negative --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 19:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * With a news wiki focusing on Miraheze wikis/users, that is something to be concerned about. However, it's less of an issue with a news site with articles being edited by anyone, since for example, if a user were to find a poorly-written news page with incorrect information and bias, they could correct it themselves instead of asking the author to do so, as the author may not be willing to rewrite their article. If it were a typical news site with a group of editors, then there is a greater chance of bias, since there are less editors. Additionally, there would be rules in place that would prevent users from writing articles about conflicts they're involved in or related to in some way, to reduce bias and drama even further. Tali64³ (talk) 19:45, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  It was mentioned (DC) there is already an unfinished news section on Meta. I'd be hesitant to change to support until guidelines were developed as discussed below in the comments section, to avoid any magnification of issues as mentioned by others above. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Abstain

 * I agree with this and think very nice idea.I also think users can notice miraheze news on even meta, so seems not needed. by Buehl106 ·Talk·e-mail 00:40, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The proposal sounds as though the wiki would assemble news from actual news media covering Miraheze. That sounds like a modest and sensible bit of self-promotion, which would, over time, help Miraheze justify having a page at Wikipedia.  On the other hand, the objections sound as though the wiki would include insider news on individual wikis, written by the participants, which might veer into drama (and would fortify Wikipedia's view that this is a private club that doesn't deserve an entry).  It is hard to write about drama neutrally, and it is very hard for those mentioned to agree that it was written neutrally.   00:50 4-Mar-2023 00:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The news wiki would cover news concerning Miraheze as a whole or major wikis (which may or may not include news media covering Miraheze). There is a valid concern that insider news written by participants of a certain wiki might veer into drama; however, the benefit of having news articles be editable by anyone ensures a neutral point of view.
 * There are arguments against your statement that insider news "would fortify Wikipedia's view that this is a private club that doesn't deserve an entry"; for example, several drama pits, such as Encyclopedia Dramatica (which is entirely based on drama) have pages on Wikipedia. In contrast, Miraheze doesn't have a page there because it's not considered notable enough for inclusion. Tali64³ (talk) 00:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm paraphrasing "Wikipedia's view", but their standard of notability rests on mention by established news media. The Wikipedia article on ED has 86 footnotes, some of them from established sources.  Some of the news articles document efforts by independent services such as Google to restrict access to ED.  That's notable.  It would not prove anything that Wikipedia didn't apply its principles consistently or that ED is not as useful a website as Miraheze; ED got more notable by practicing "racism".  If our proposed wiki assembled independent mentions of Miraheze, it would help prove notability.  On the other hand, being open for editing by many people does not ensure neutrality.   18:40 4-Mar-2023 18:40, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments
I have certain questions to help determine the feasibility of this idea: I could see other issues being dealt with as the wiki moves along, but these two stand out to me as fundamental issues in a wiki that wishes to cover a global aspect of Miraheze. --Raidarr (talk) 14:53, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) How do you see the wiki being administered, as a global 'sattelite project' in the vein of Dev, Commons and Test wiki, while avoiding their problems (ie, a largely inactive administration)?
 * 2) How would you reconcile the scope of this wiki with this rfc closure, which reiterates the not-quite-official nature and sanction of wikis like the ones listed above?


 * The wiki would be community-run and would not be officially endorsed or sponsored by Miraheze. However, if any Stewards/Global Sysops expressed interest in contributing, they'd be free to do so.
 * Per above, there would be a notice stating that the wiki isn't officially endorsed/sponsored by Miraheze.
 * Tali64³ (talk) 15:18, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Having thought of this some more, I believe that this concept should be downscaled to a community initiative operating on Meta. This could be realized through a handful of volunteers who produce a monthly summary of what's going on and what's new for the platform and prominent or up-and-coming wikis. This could be organized through a central page (with project discussion on its talk page) and dated subpages for each issue which could be advertised on Discord, the Community Noticeboard and if it goes well, perhaps the main page (with admin collaboration and after community feedback on the project). The central page can explain what's up, what the standards are (say notability: not advertising literally any wiki that has just been approved but with a substantive bar for changes worth checking out), and have a section to suggest items for the next entry. It would be produced from a core group of volunteers who'd of course be open to submissions and feedback or taking on fellow organizers as needed. This would satisfy the interest in covering Miraheze news and I think the volume would fit one nicely made page per month just fine (or another interval as possible/practical). It would avoid the raw volume and likely issues of a full-fledged wiki on the subject, and it would be a chance to demonstrate the concept. If it's apparent that a full wiki is needed to further realize it, the topic can be revisited with that experience so the current skepticism can be cut through. This is something I'd personally support and even be willing to help produce. If successful I'd say it should be the point where the current Gazetteer of wikis is retired as obsolete, as we'd then have a responsive list of everything via WikiDiscover plus an actively curated highlights feature for the community. --Raidarr (talk) 14:06, 7 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Given the indecisive conclusion on this subject and the stalling of discussion I'd suggest moving forward with this path or something like it. --Raidarr (talk) 18:05, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's a very early draft of MCN: User:Tali64³/Miraheze Community News. Is there anything you'd like to suggest? Tali64³ (talk) 19:56, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would develop it by having a set of guidelines; what's appropriate, the boundaries and so forth. Something for notability perhaps. It would be good to collaborate how to fill each section and perhaps have a summary publication of what made news and what gets spotlight (ie, the monthly thing). That's something which could wrap in as well if we want to discuss it here, the draft's talk page or even through discord. --Raidarr (talk) 20:17, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I have briefly returned
Yes, I am back and have matured significantly. I am now in university however (will not say which one) so I will have some time constraints.

I now have an alternate account that is only intended for use on the Polandball Wiki.

Also, I'm not sure if this is a topic to talk about, but I think it might help in some way. I am a Christian who, fortunately, does believe in rational things while staying true to Biblical doctrine (I now have doubts about young-earth creationism). (One of my affiliated church communities) I do not intend to force my beliefs on others; neither am I extremist or believe in irrational and dangerous things, unlike many fanatics who sadly taint my beliefs by taking up our name. Sadly, however, I was swayed by them in a period from 2019 to 2021. It was only recently that I recognized that some "Christians" are pushing unbiblical and irrational doctrines that are downright dangerous, so I think it might be a good idea that these be blacklisted throughout Miraheze to make this a safer community. Upon request, I can give examples of dangerous extremist sites to blacklist.

Thanks and God Bless Joey717 (talk) 22:19, 5 March 2023 (UTC) (Joseph D. Pelobello)


 * That's nice and all, but why is this on the community noticeboard? Collei (talk) 22:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You do not intend to force your beliefs on others but you want to have beliefs you don't like blocked from the platform. You will need some thorough examples connected to actual policy for that statement to sound good. The rest is not topical to this board. --Raidarr (talk) 23:16, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I obviously don't want to block Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, neo-Pagans, etc. of course; I was just talking about extremism and disinformation.
 * Joey717 (talk) 00:04, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "I'm not sure if this is a topic to talk about" here, I'll help you out: it's really not. Good for you on your personal journey, maybe go read some Dumbing of Age to see how Joyce you are. Calling for religious-based censorship unprompted is a bad look. Miraheze has policies for extremist content and hate speech already, we don't need to make this a Crusade. Chantolove (talk) 17:40, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, I think we should end it at that. I don't want to be misinterpreted, I only wanted to ban extremism and hate speech. Thanks for the advice! Joey717 (talk) 19:07, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Extremism and hate speech are already banned, both by UK law and Miraheze policies. Collei (talk) 20:13, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think merely being an extremist is illegal in the UK. It's also a very broad term that could be easily misinterpreted, or used maliciously. I don't know of any Miraheze policies that prohibit "extremism" either. Bbbtest (talk) 04:50, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The UK does not have the same level of free speech as the US. Hate speech (,, etc.) is illegal in the UK. Collei (talk) 05:30, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1. I will note that this conversation, given the sensitive nature of the topic, could easily probe the waters of GCP violations, and VCP for some involved. It hasn't yet, but just something to keep in mind because of the topic at hand. Reminder to keep everything respectful, even if we don't necessarily agree with another user's point of view.
 * 2. Extremism is banned by the UK in some cases, not all. But hate speech would likely violate Articles III, V, or VII anyway, so likely not a problem Content Policy-wise. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 05:41, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I already know that hate speech is illegal in the UK. Extremism is banned by the UK in some cases, not all. Which cases? (Thanks)
 * P.S. I replied to you on freeeditingwiki if you weren't aware. Not sure if you received my reply, as Miraheze - unlike Wikimedia - does not appear to give cross-wiki pings. :) Bbbtest (talk) 06:55, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Cross-wiki pinging must be enabled by users in their own preferences. --Raidarr (talk) 13:48, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh. Doing that now. Thanks. Bbbtest (talk) 14:25, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I should note that for Collei to receive it cross-wiki he also needs to have it enabled. I think it is good for anyone to have enabled though, and perhaps it should be better advertised or even a default... --Raidarr (talk) 14:32, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would most definitely endorse it as the default. Can I start a phab task? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail | please vote on my adminship ) 14:38, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know the consequences and arguments/counterarguments that might appear but it's probably worth discussing. --Raidarr (talk) 15:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So, can I phab it or not? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail | please vote on my adminship ) 15:16, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Up to you. I don't see why you can't. --Raidarr (talk) 15:30, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Feel free to endorse it here. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail | please vote on my adminship ) 15:53, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, that depends what you mean by extremism. Violent and hateful extremism is banned in the UK. Collei (talk) 18:48, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * By that. do meaning that acting on said extremism is illegal? Or merely holding those beliefs? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail | please vote on my adminship ) 19:42, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Acting on it Collei (talk) 21:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, that would mean that extremism isn't illegal. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail | please vote on my adminship ) 21:12, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you provide some examples of extremism? BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 06:18, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What the hell did I just walk myself into? DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 23:52, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why it was necessary to 'walk the hell into it' with nothing to add to it, quite frankly. --Raidarr (talk) 13:49, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why it was necessary to 'walk the hell into it' with nothing to add to it, quite frankly. --Raidarr (talk) 13:49, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

interwiki for 2 wikis





 * working on this now
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 18:13, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 18:36, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! There's an extra space at the end of  URL. Ora &#38; D (talk) 19:03, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I tried to be extra judicious about removing those this time after the last batch I did for one of your requests. I didn't see it when going into edit so I just did a removal and re-add.  Can you test again and confirm if it's fixed? --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 19:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's easy to miss. All good now! Ora &#38; D (talk) 20:02, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * For the record, I don't actively add trailing spaces just to trick unsuspicious interwiki admins. Ora &#38; D (talk) 20:44, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh 100%, not implied as such. It's a vestige of copy-paste from tables, but easier to sneak through on right-to-left language pages since the cursor doesn't always behave consistently in trying to find them depending on how the browser's feeling at any given moment. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 20:49, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait, you guys actually enter local wikis, type, and locally edit their interwiki entries? I assumed there was some kind of global interface. Ora &#38; D (talk) 21:17, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yup! Some stuff can be done through global pages on Meta, local interwikis aren't one of those things.  That can pose some unique challenges at times. :) --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 01:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * RTL wikis must look upside down. Is 'no' the default option (forward & transclude)? Ora &#38; D (talk) 09:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That's correct, it flips around the location of a few interactable items, but defaults remain the same. Forward & Transclude are still default no and must be intentionally opted in.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 15:39, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Very unusual issue on my wiki
When I ping more than 33 users, the page containing the ping is added to the Category "Pages with too many expensive parser function calls" I don't know why is happens, but the ping still seems to work. Example: https://freeediting.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Ping/2/sandbox Bbbtest (talk) 09:55, 8 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I doubt the feature was intended to support such aggressive pinging and it probably overloaded whatever it's using to make the calls. SRE could probably enlighten on this one, but it would probably be a low priority to address or fix. Flow and related features can be a bit delicate. In the meantime I'd avoid distributing so many pings and finding a more efficient way to mass notify; if you need that many people then for example a sitenotice is probably appropriate. --Raidarr (talk) 14:25, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't need to mass message. It just showed up when I was testing my ping template implementation and I was curious to why. Bbbtest (talk) 14:27, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There's a default upper limit of either 50 or 100 expensive calls when parsing a page, as I recall. I don't recall how many a single ping uses up, but probably more than 1 if you're hitting the limit w/ 33 pings and nothing else going on on the page. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 15:36, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Take a look here: https://freeediting.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Ping/2/sandbox Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail | please vote on my adminship ) 15:56, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Content Policy Amendment - Derogatory Language

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
 * Both proposals closed as successful. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 00:25, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Given recent gaps identified in community understanding of content policy 3 (unsubstantiated insult/hate/rumors), I am proposing the following changes to clarify intent and permissibility of certain types of derogatory language that have proliferated on the platform.

Proposals here should be read as only impacting article content, not amending or superceding any of the Conduct Policies (Global, Volunteer, MSCoC), which apply to talk pages and other modes of user-to-user interaction.

Upon consultation with stewards, given single-issue scope of changes and intent as a policy clarification via amendment, this vote is being launched as a CN Feedback Request instead of a RfC post per RfC Policy.

Initiated By: NotAracham (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 1 (Amend Content Policy 3)
Add the following bolded clause to the end of Content Policy 3, changing reading to:

''Content on wikis must be fairly balanced, meaningful or substantiated by independent referencing. Wikis which have a clearly identifiable comedic or satire value are exempt from needing to substantiate claims as these provide a meaningful value in terms of relevant content.'' Exceptions for comedy/satire do not cover derogatory language based on factors such as race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, age, disability, or other marginalised groups.

Rationale
The comedy/satire exception today is being widely abused as rationale for 'racism/sexism/bigotry is okay if it's a joke' by individuals with a variety of goals/ambitions, and is without fail a step towards larger policy violations under CP3 (unsubstantiated hate/insults), CP5 (toxic communities) and CP10 (Making problems for other wikis).

Factors listed are intentionally duplicative of those listed and approved by the community in Content Policy 7 to avoid inter-clause reliance

While Stewards generally will act on these instances when found, the reputational damage for allowing unchecked behavior of this kind is sufficient to merit closing this perceived loophole in my opinion.

Support

 * 1) as proposer. --NotAracham (talk) 19:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) I agree. --1108-Kiju /Talk  01:05, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) gender, sexual orientation, religious affiliation is clarified, as it could easily abused. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail | please vote on my adminship ) 22:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Definitely reasonable. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 01:23, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What are your thoughts about my above concerns? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 01:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I’m not really sure how it would be abused. Could you provide an example? BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 01:59, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * See the 'Comments' section for a simple example. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:01, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  Parody must not be used as a "loophole" that would allow a person to circumvent the policy by claiming everything is "parody". --DeeM28 (talk) 13:44, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  This makes good sense and seems entirely reasonable. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments

 * 1) As this proposal applies only to content policy, this change would not govern or impact re-appropriative use of derogatory terms in person-to-person interactions, Conduct policy would supercede in these cases. --NotAracham (talk) 19:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) marginalized? I don't why that's necessary. It could also easily be abused. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail | please vote on my adminship ) 22:44, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The language was selected to explicitly mirror current community-approved language in Content Policy clause 7, as this wording was already approved and doesn't need to go through full RfC. Agreed though that there is room for improvement/clarification.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 00:27, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What about "gender, sexual orientation, religious affiliation"? Couldn't that easily be abused? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 01:14, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's worth remembering that the assessing and enforcing party in these instances will generally be stewards, who have already demonstrated a high level of fairness, sound judgement and community trust in securing and retaining their role.
 * If local leadership is abusing this wording in the other direction (e.g. a malicious actor trying use this as cover to purge any mention of non white/cisgender/heterosexual individuals), that would not go well for them.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 01:20, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt that stewards would enforce it fairly, but different users may come to have different interpretations of the same rules if they are unclear. Example: A user with creationist views may think that content against such views would violate these policies. And they very well may be right, if the rules are not clear. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 01:24, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * While I hear your concerns, this is a hypothetical that hasn't played out for the duration of the language above existing in CP7.
 * Updating the already-approved language would be out of scope for this FR as it would shift this from being a single-issue proposal (and would likely need to go through a proper RfC as it goes beyond minor clarification.)
 * I would likely support that clarification if proposed, though. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 01:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have thought of a way to clarify it, but the explanation is pretty long, so reply if your interested. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 19:27, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 2 (Amend Content Policy 7)
Add the following bolded clause to the end of Content Policy 7, changing reading to:

''7. Miraheze does not host wikis that promote violence, hatred, or harassment against a person or group of people. This include wikis which promote violence or hatred against people or groups of people based on factors such as race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, age, disability, or other marginalised groups. Derogatory language based on these factors is not allowed except when relevant to documenting an event, e.g. controversy about the inclusion of derogatory terms in a book. ''

Rationale
While CP3 is intended to cover these sorts of instances, an explicit declaration of intent in CP7 will hopefully cut down on proliferation of bad actors operating under the protections of 'comedy/satire'.

While Stewards generally will act on hateful instances when found, setting a global baseline is healthy for Miraheze in the long-term.

Support

 * 1) as proposer. --NotAracham (talk) 19:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) It is a reasonable proposal. --1108-Kiju /Talk  01:09, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail | please vote on my adminship ) 22:47, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Per above. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 01:24, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 5)  Completely reasonable and appreciated proposal. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments

 * 1) As this proposal applies only to content policy, this change would not govern or impact re-appropriative use of derogatory terms in person-to-person interactions, Conduct policy would supercede in these cases. --NotAracham (talk) 19:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) NotAracham What do you consider to be included in the definition "documenting an event" and what would not qualify under this provision? And additionally does this provision only include the use of specific terms or would it include a general view being expressed? --DeeM28 (talk) 13:44, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * My general framing intent on this is 'If the term or language is meaningfully relevant to necessary context within an article'. The use of the phrase derogatory language is intentional to cover more than specific terms. Describing someone's bigotry would not be a violation, but bigoted speech would be a violation.
 * E.g. writing an article about antisemitism or an anti-semitic event doesn't give a free pass for use of anti-semitic language throughout the article, while an article about a Roald Dahl book getting edited due to specific use of the N word or similar may require the term (or terms) to be listed for full context. Similarly, it doesn't give a free pass to use bigoted language throughout the article.
 * Determining what's in or out of bounds is a mess to codify systematically, but as stewards are the intended enforcement mechanism for this provision, some leeway is given to their discretion in the matter on what does or does not qualify.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 19:20, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Co-founding a wiki
Is it possible for multiple users to found a wiki? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 00:10, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Being a wiki founder doesn't really mean anything. The 'founder' group doesn't exist on wiki, the highest you can go is bureaucrat. If you want another user to have as many rights as you, just promote them to bureaucrat. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 00:23, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What I meant was if more than one user can co-create a wiki. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 01:12, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The CreateWiki system only supports a request from a single user account. That user account is free to grant bureaucrat and administrator roles to anyone else following creation, that essentially gives the follow-on users equal standing to make requests on behalf of the wiki.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 01:22, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * From the social perspective of 'can two users come up with, design and administer a wiki together' absolutely. It's just that one of them needs to put in the request and give the other equal rights upon creation. --Raidarr (talk) 01:42, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, can you close this discussion now? I can't seem to find the template to do so? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 01:47, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There are some discussion templates to do it but we tend not to close it outright unless absolutely necessary or it is a formal one ie, an FR or an RFC. --Raidarr (talk) 02:08, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Template:Anchor
I'm trying to insert an anchor into the page: , but the anchor is not added, but a link to the template appears. With what it can be connected? Wiki: ovik.miraheze.org Dimok911 (talk) 11:03, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Could you make a demo of the issue in English so I can help? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 19:25, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Bbbtest I switched the wiki interface to English and recorded a demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC793Gb5CSs . Address of the created test page: https://ovik.miraheze.org/wiki/Test Dimok911 (talk) 10:00, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There is currently no content on the Template:Anchor page, hence why it is forming a redlink. Templates are logic written in wikitext that perform tasks, without code on the template page nothing happens.
 * It looks like you attempted to load the template itself a few times from another source (maybe wikipedia?) and deleted it a few times, if you didn't see a change after doing so you can always use the 'purge' action on the page where you're seeing the error to force the server to re-parse the page.
 * This version of Anchor from mediawiki looks like it might meet your needs, but do be aware it also requires you to import Module:Loops and Module:TableTools.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 17:01, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * NotArachamThanks for the answer! I found the Anchor template without using the module:https://ru.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD:Anchor&action=edit and it worked!
 * I also wanted to clarify, if I want to add modules, then I need to make a page, for example, Module:Loops, as well as when adding a template, and add code to it already? No additional steps are required when adding a module? Dimok911 (talk) 17:24, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Correct, pages created in the Module: namespace work like templates, e.g. copy the source code from a module on another wiki, create a page on your wiki by the same name like Module:Example, paste in the code, and save.
 * The only big difference is that Modules use Lua code instead of wikitext to function. If it's not properly formatting as code and instead looks like a generic article when saved, you may on rare occasions need to use the Special:ChangeContentModel page to change the content model of the module page from generic text to Scribunto (how wikis parse Lua).
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 17:29, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * To ping a user, you need to . Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 07:50, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Site question
Any news on the status of the Drawn Feet wiki site? I miss being a member on it. --Spare-tire (talk) 02:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Those working to resolve the issues of the wiki were unable to do so within allotted time, this wiki is now permanently closed.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 16:55, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Changing username
How do you change it? 12.202.154.138 03:57, 12 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Login to your account and click here. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 06:31, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Request for feedback: Donor global group
Hi everyone!

SRE is seeking your input on a potential new global group. As part of our annual fundraiser, we are seeking to create more ways to entice users to donate. One such way would be to provide visible identification that a user donates. On Discord, this is planned via a new "Donor" role. On-wiki, we are seeking to create a new "Donor" global group which would identify a user as a donor.

The group itself would grant no extra privileges and the only right in the group (a minimum of one right is needed for a global group to exist) would be a very miniscule right that's already included by default to all users (such as editmywatchlist or oathauth-enable). Having this global group would not entitle any user to preferential treatment or priority, it would only be an on-wiki indicator that a user has donated to Miraheze and an incentive to do so. The group would be grantable by Stewards primarily (or system administrators if Stewards are unavailable) and group membership would be at the discretion of the organizer of the fundraiser who will request users be added or removed from the group, in order to ensure upkeep of the group.

Interestingly, the 'donator' global group was actually the first global group to ever be created on Miraheze (yes, it precedes the sysadmin and steward global groups!) and was the 10th log action on Meta and the first global group appointment ever was QuimGuil being promoted to donator (which was also the 11th Meta log action). From what I'm told, the group was removed as no one oversaw its upkeep and maintained it up to date with actual current donors. This new global group, via it's guidelines, would periodically remove older donors who haven't donated in a while (say, over a year) to further encourage users to donate. Please let us know what you think. Thank you! Agent Isai Talk to me! 03:54, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No. Donations are inherently a way to donate. Recognition on the page is enough and we certainly do not need a group of that kind. Also a group that has no permissions is pointless on its own, groups are not supposed to be badges. Naleksuh (talk) 03:57, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't support the idea of the role existing just to exist, but if it's a means to try and up the donation count, then I would support it. Miraheze is very thinly spread in terms of resources, and any additional $ helps, no matter the amount. That being said, I would like to see some minimum donations in order to get the role (ie. $5/month or something), but otherwise this seems fine to me. Again, though, only as a means to up the donation count. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 04:07, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Let's also turn their name giant purple if they donate! That'll really up the count! Naleksuh 04:10, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If you want, we can look into making this a possibility. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Please do. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 06:02, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would view this as a 'membership' badge, which I don't think is inherently a bad thing, even if those with giant purple names disagree. While it might be a bit of extra administrative work to manage a '2023 supporter' list for discord and/or meta or global wiki-users, I suspect it would be worthwhile to pilot as an inexpensive way to drum up additional support in a time when we need it more than ever.


 * At bare minimum, it raises visibility to Miraheze being powered by donations and interest in 'how'd you get that cool discord role?'


 * Agreed that a minimum (e.g. 5 or 10 USD) should be established as a prerequisite if this moves forward.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 04:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'm not really sure I see the benefit to having a global group over simply overhauling Finance or creating a new page to track and spotlight donors. The main reason I think this is because there's practically nothing in stock MediaWiki that shows of global group membership like a badge. (We could create a gadget to add in a badge or something, but it would be more stable to not use global group membership for this purpose). Unless the donation group actually is going to be used for more than just a badge of honor, I think we're better off with a "Special thanks" type page. -- Void  Whispers 04:40, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It shows up on Special:CentralAuth, that's where it's most prominent and the intent was for it to show up there specifically so users browsing CentralAuth see it. Anyhow though, I will take into consideration potentially adding a special thanks section to Fundraiser and asking Owen if it's acceptable to add such a section to Finance. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:47, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there a userbox for people who have donated? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 07:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

sibebar help ?
Can someone help me modify sidebar on this wiki? https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sidebar

Marieke Timelab (talk) 15:50, 14 March 2023 (UTC)


 * also interested in this! ZBlace (talk) 15:51, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear on what your specific question/challenge is you want to solve. Here's MediaWiki's documentation on how to customize the sidebar, if you have a more specific question we're happy to help...
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 17:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If you can see the source of Sidebar page *https://timelab.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sidebar&action=edit, then you can also see it is not interpreted/used in Sidebar menu at all, as if there is override with defaults..is that not problematic? --18:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, it appears that there was a bad cached version of the page. I used the More >> Purge action to force a re-render and your sidebar changes now show up. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 19:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham thank you!
 * @Marieke Timelab any other help needed? ZBlace (talk) 19:56, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham are you sure it was cache issue? I tried purging it also but now did not get newest version :-(
 * -- ZBlace (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Bar contents are appearing, there are just issues with the source code as entered today. See attached screenshot, one of the issues is that they're trying to use inline links for partial text with  and , while MediaWiki only supports exact_pagename|text_to_display without brackets for the sidebar, to my understanding.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 18:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I added code for you and @Marieke Timelab to test out for the sidebar, you can find it on:
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Sidebar
 * It worked flawlessly on my personal instance, hope it helps! Cheers, --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 21:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham thank you...
 * Strange that sidebar would not support other type of links.
 * -- ZBlace (talk) 14:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Example Shot Of Sidebar.png


 * navigation
 * Commoning Art Practice
 * Reshaping Production
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/Knotfactory|Knotfactory
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/Knotplex|Knotplex
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/Knotpot|Knotpot

Using Meta as a comparison
 * navigation
 * mainpage|mainpage-description
 * recentchanges-url|recentchanges
 * randompage-url|randompage
 * Requests
 * Special:RequestWiki|miraheze-requestwiki
 * Special:RequestImportDump|requestimportdump
 * Special:MyLanguage/Request features|miraheze-requestfeatures
 * Requests for reopening wikis|Request to reopen a wiki
 * Requests for Comment|Requests for Comment
 * Noticeboards
 * Community noticeboard|Community noticeboard
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 * Meta:Administrators' noticeboard|Meta Administrators' noticeboard
 * Meta:Community portal|Meta Community portal
 * Miraheze
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 * Special:MyLanguage/FAQ|faq
 * Donate
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 * SEARCH
 * TOOLBOX
 * LANGUAGES

Help with Infobox:country
Hello! I need help with formatting for my infobox. I assume that I have most extensions, Modules, and Templates needed to make this work but the infobox still isn't formatting like a normal one should. If someone knows what the problem is, please help!

(Page in question: https://landar.miraheze.org/wiki/Kh%C3%BBldran_Empire) Flaming (talk) 20:47, 14 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I will be looking into this. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 23:13, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you give me admin access to your wiki to assist you? (Since your wiki only permits sysops to edit.) Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 23:15, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Granted. Thank you for the help! --Flaming (talk) 00:03, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have fixed it. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:35, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! --Flaming (talk) 11:45, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Twinkle rollback does not work
When I try to rollback using Twinkle, it just redirects me to the page I am trying to revert + "&twinklerevert=norm" and does not actually revert the edit(s). Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 06:43, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Is there a limit for the number of wikis one can own?
Title explains it all. Patitocafe (talk) 01:22, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * There is no limit to how many wikis you can own, but your requests may be declined if you make too many in a short period of time. Tali64³ (talk) 01:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Patitocafe (talk) 01:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Universal Omega's Request for IRC Group Contact
Hello, this is highly unorthodox and unprecedented request. I am not 100% sure if this is even how to go about it. However, I have decided to make this request (which may or may not be advisory-only to existing group contacts) to be an IRC Group Contact. My reason for this request is that currently there is only a single group contact on IRC. This means that when that one group contact is away there is no one else to handle requests. And ideally in order to balance things out, there should be more than one group contact, if not just to have a fallback to handle things requiring the attention of a group contact. Therefore, I am now making this request, and requesting confirmation from the community for the position as IRC Group Contact. Thank you! Universal Omega (talk) 05:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I would like to confirm, that even given recent events, and my resignation from SRE, I am not withdrawing this request. Now more than ever we need GCs, and even though I am no longer SRE, I still am a community member here, and am committed to helping things move forward between relations between all core groups in Miraheze. My first and foremost commitment is to the community, and even given recent events and regrettable things that have happened that has not changed, and I am still keeping this request up. I just thought I should clarify that. Universal Omega (talk) 20:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Questions for candidate

 * 1) Below in MacFan's oppose section he said, "A private discussion between Miraheze staff members", do you feel private discussions should be a preliminary aspect of starting community discussions like this? It's interesting that 3 requests have come at once following a discussion that is not public and involving 2 groups labelled as staff when neither are Board appointed? Miraheze has had a long history of having a closed 'old boys' style club where decisions were made in private involving groups that either a) shouldn't be discussing community affecting things privately (stewards) or b) shouldn't be having a major influence on community aspects by definition (SRE). I find it slightly concerning that this line of proposals is coming out of re-igniting such a private and exclusive club. John (talk) 21:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No extensive conversation took place. I had voiced my intent to make this request, which I always wanted to be a community and not internal decision, or at least an "advisory" aspect on the decision of this. I then privately talked it over with Reception123, to make sure they were also okay with me nominating them for it, as I felt we needed at least two fairly active members of IRC as additional GCs. MacFan4000 and I had only briefly discussed in a PM. And in another conversation, it was voiced between a few users that there was a need, which is why I made this request.
 * I made this request before any other requests, or even voiced intents to make such request was even mentioned from other users. I believe that the community should have an opinion on the matter, which is why I made this, rather than requesting directly to you, or requesting it be inherited from any other position.
 * The "private" conversation that took place, should not have been said "staff" as was described above, but an unofficial group, that this was discussed on. Calling it "staff" decision or discussion was wrong, and the whole scope of the conversation was that it would be good to expand on the GCs, for numerous reasons, as I outlined in this request.
 * The last thing I would note, is the "private" conversation mentioned, was not even only SRE, or Stewards, but other users were also. It was never in an NDA channel, or any channel officially sanctioned by Miraheze, but a private discussion between the more trusted and active users. It was not necessarily a "sensitive" discussion, and the conversation was not meant to make a "decision" on the matter.
 * At least for me, the point of this request, while having no precedent for this exact request, was to in fact involve the community in the decision and discussion revolving around it. This for me was meant to take it out of just private areas into a place where the community could voice their opinion on it as well. Universal Omega (talk) 22:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Given the purpose of the channel has been further clarified to not include private/sensitive discussions, why does it exist only to include 'active and trusted' users if the discussions can be public? John (talk) 22:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) What steps would you take to ensure the community remains uninfluenced by such private and closed venues where the community can not suitably or appropriately assess need, necessity or content of such non-sensitive discussions? John (talk) 21:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I kinda answered this question above as well. I think there might have been a misunderstanding on the scope of the discussion that took place, it was not a long discussion, this post (and the ones that followed) are the majority of any discussion that took place prior to the request. Once the discussion was started it took place here, openly to the community. That is the majority of any discussion to have taken place, other then some passive mentioning that additional GCs might not hurt for various reasons (which I do admit I brought up), and potentially expanding them might be needed. But overall, it was not meant to be a solely private, secret, or hidden conversation at all, which was the point of this request, and my nomination for Reception123 below as well. Universal Omega (talk) 22:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This discussion wouldn't have been the first one to have been had in a secretive venue though - so I would like a more broad answer over what steps you'd take to ensure such venues don't continue to be a source of where discussions can be had in private only privy to those allowed, rather than the whole community who should be engaged in them? John (talk) 22:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That is fair. I do admit that this probably should never have even made its way into that channel. The conversations to usually take place there are related to some moderation, off-topic, and just random conversations. It's purpose is more inline of a group DM then an actual channel, but the channel is used on IRC to relay from Discord. It has had a place on Discord for years, as just a random conversation between a few users, that I do admit these type of conversations should not take place on. But it has only existed on IRC and relayed for about a day, it was never intended to have conversations that impact the community there, but sometimes things can veer off-course into foggy grounds in the matter. Though nothing ever NDA bound is discussed there. It's purpose has always been, on Discord anyway, as a group DM chat for users to ask others questions, have advisory for some things, or just discuss random things. The conversation that took place yesterday was fairly rare in the scope of it and we typically try to avoid such conversations.
 * I think this also answers your above question as well. I do agree with your point that most conversations should take place public, especially like these. But I don't agree that nothing can ever be private, there is a use-case for some private personal conversations (including between non-NDA users) that do take place, which is why that channel exists.. however, it should be noted that conversations such as these should not take place there in the future. Universal Omega (talk) 22:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Support

 * No problems. Though, I don't think Libera Chat reads RfCs, John can certainly ask for it if this is successful Naleksuh (talk) 05:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * 1)  CosmicAlpha can be the fully active group contact, since John is in and out. Trusted, not a problem. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 05:18, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  This is okay. --   Joseph  TB  CT  CA   06:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 3)  No issues with this request.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4)  This is a minimal-effort role that also requires a trusted user that is also an IRC regular.  CosmicAlpha (along with the other two proposed users) will give us an active presence and allow for normal maintenance/continuity of operations --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 16:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 5)  Trusted and active user, no issues with this. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Same as my vote on Reception123's request. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 10:37, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Per this. There have already been two previous issues regarding targetted harassment, and I did note that if it continued I would not be able to contribute to Miraheze. Yet sadly one of the only people I trusted decided not only to join that club and not only do things unbecoming of a GC even just by things I could see (I wrote a 6000+ word document detailing the issues) yet this morning I see this shit? What the hell?! I suppose this request is just to be able to continue that on a larger power mode. Naleksuh (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I accept this, but just to say one thing, I am very sorry for things that have happened. I have never myself been involved in anything you consider harassment, and have always been one to at least try and defend you. It hasn't been a common theme amongst volunteers, as your actions haven't always been great, but I've always understood, trusted, and supported you for the most part. I deeply apologise for everything that has happened. I hope you can at least try and accept my sincere apology for that personally. The content that had been posted were taken put of context and were meant in a jokingly way, but it still doesn't necessarily make it okay for you and understand you may feel in the matter. I am not trying to ask you to switch your vote as I'll admit you're probably right in your oppose based off some things that have happened, but I do still want to offer my own apology for how things played out. Universal Omega (talk) 17:11, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Who made those comments? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:54, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Who made what comments? Naleksuh (talk) 02:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The ones on IRC shown by John. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't confirm myself (John can), but some people were saying Zppix sent them. This is curious because Zppix is not an IRC operator. So either this wasn't an IRC operator discussion and was just the Club in general, or Zppix was not actually the one who wrote them. Naleksuh (talk) 03:08, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * They were taken from Discord, not IRC. Had nothing to do with IRC at the time. Universal Omega (talk) 03:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What is discord? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:16, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Reception123's Nomination for IRC Group Contact
Mostly for the same reason as my request above, for the reason of balancing things out on IRC as group contacts. I believe Reception123 would be great addition to that as well, as they are very active on IRC, and responsive to requests. It would make sense to have more than just one additional Group Contact as well. For that reason I nominate Reception123 for it as well. Universal Omega (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, Universal Omega. I accept the nomination. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 06:46, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Questions for candidate

 * 1) Below in MacFan's oppose section he said, "A private discussion between Miraheze staff members", do you feel private discussions should be a preliminary aspect of starting community discussions like this? It's interesting that 3 requests have come at once following a discussion that is not public and involving 2 groups labelled as staff when neither are Board appointed? Miraheze has had a long history of having a closed 'old boys' style club where decisions were made in private involving groups that either a) shouldn't be discussing community affecting things privately (stewards) or b) shouldn't be having a major influence on community aspects by definition (SRE). I find it slightly concerning that this line of proposals is coming out of re-igniting such a private and exclusive club. John (talk) 21:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I mostly would associate myself with the extensive answer that Universal Omega has already provided to the same question in his request. As far as I'm concerned, I was caught by surprise in the morning to learn that Universal Omega had nominated me and he simply informed me of this fact via DM. I also wouldn't say that any "decisions" would have been made in any case by this "club" as there was, as far as I'm aware no attempt to influence people involved to vote in any particular way, and certainly I don't think they would have voted differently if the aspect was never discussed in the "club". Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 05:48, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) What steps would you take to ensure the community remains uninfluenced by such private and closed venues where the community can not suitably or appropriately assess need, necessity or content of such non-sensitive discussions? John (talk) 21:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I against associate myself with what Universal Omega has said and think it's important to remind ourselves of the need to be more transparent in our decision making. I do believe that at times it is useful in some cases to have such a group but I don't think that important "decisions" should be made there. As Universal Omega also suggested, I think it's best to compare such a group to a DM, where ideas can be discussed before getting to a stage of actual concrete proposals. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 05:48, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would also add that this group is not at all like the former private SRE group where often decisions were directly made there without community input or transparency, before the role of CES was introduced. I still don't think that it can be said that any "decisions" of any kind are made within this group. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 05:58, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What are your thoughts then on the fact this 'group' is used to created targeted harassment cases of users like Naleksuh and others users by making jokes around things like:
 * "just run DROP NALE FROM *;"
 * "I’d gladly risk my rights to block him on ever wiki I have advanced rights on"
 * "He can’t appeal IRC bans if we globally ban him"
 * "I’d vote a policy that says the cabal can revoke any right, anytime we want 😂"
 * "Thats when we OS it and it never happened"
 * "Fwiw theres not a snowballs chance in hell any of us would support it"
 * Do these comments represent value and Miraheze in a good way? John (talk) 07:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You seem to have a deep misunderstanding of the nature of a collegial work environment. I'm out.
 * Thanks for all the fish, y'all.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 08:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * A project has been effectively ruined for such a misguided goal and for the sake of one user that has mistreated the entire volunteer team. Congratulations, truly for this. It's just unconceivable. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 08:10, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have to admit I don’t recall when/where that conversation took place. I’m not even sure I was a part of it. The fact is that private conversations are private for various reasons. It is not up to a single person to just release those messages without first talking to the other people involved in the conversation. Doing so is a violation of trust and respect. I find it very alarming that John thought that it would ever be appropriate. Even if a channel is not NDA bound, you should still talk to everybody else first. To : I want to assure you that SRE was certainly not being serious about any of those comments. I apologize on behalf of SRE, for you suddenly being brought further into this. Sometimes we get annoyed with people and talk to each other about it, but we never mean to disrespect anybody ever, which is exactly why these messages were meant to stay private. It’s understandable that you will be upset by the messages, but I would advise that you don’t escalate the situation further then it has already been. Multiple people are already upset, and I don’t want to make things worse. Mistakes were made, and once again I am deeply sorry that you had to be put in the center of all this. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 12:15, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I feel I should comment as those messages are mine, I stated those things either as a joke, or in frustration, under the assumption it was being said privately and among friends, and people I trusted. No action was ever taken because of said messages. Context is important here and leaking these messages without it is a violation of my trust, and quite frankly is unfair, it makes us look like the bad guy, its not uncommon in a workplace for people to say things like this out of frustration and such. Zppix (Meta &#124; talk to me) 15:45, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Suddenly, I am not having so much trouble guessing what the WMF banned you for, John.
 * You've tried to make the entirety of Miraheze look bad over this. I really need you to understand that what one person says out of frustration in what is essentially a workplace over incidents like this and this does not reflect Miraheze. Private messages are private for a reason. If someone says something in a channel that Nale can't access, you shouldn't be sending it to Nale without good reason.
 * At least Fandom, which had their marketing and HR team post bogus Glassdoor reviews, doesn't leak private, internal communications because someone got mad at another employee.
 * Bravo. About half of the volunteer team up and quit because you can't respect their basic right to privacy and confidentiality. One of our active Discord users just said they're worried that Miraheze will turn into the next ShoutWiki. You have no idea how to run an organization. Collei (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What is John's WMF account. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No-one's business but John's. Posting off-Miraheze handles without other user's permission is outing. Naleksuh (talk) 02:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Then how does know that he's banned? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Because Collei did so anyway. Just because something shouldn't happen doesn't mean it hasn't. Naleksuh (talk) 03:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * stewardsmiraheze.org or tsmiraheze.org can deal with allegations of outing. Of course, referencing someone's Wikipedia account is not outing their personal information, so you won't have much luck reporting me for mentioning that John has a Wikipedia account.
 * Is it outing for me to mention that Reception123's Discord handle is? After all, it's off-wiki contact information, and is even tied to - gasp - a PNG of one of the default GitHub profile pictures. Collei (talk) 04:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Courtesy ping.
 * Could you tell me how you know? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:16, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's been routinely mentioned on the Discord that John has a Wikipedia account and is banned by the WMF for violating a contract while employed at the WMF. Collei (talk) 04:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not outing, that's silly .That said, bringing up the WMF ban is a low blow that doesn't help in this or any related case. --Raidarr (talk) 08:30, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Great, I already acknowledged that a while ago on Discord. Now, I hope we can all agree that Trust & Safety is not going to be globally locking my account for outing someone's Wikipedia username and Discord tag? Collei (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Support

 * 1)  Per nomination Universal Omega (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Per my above rationale. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 06:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 3)  I don't know anything about this, but he seems like a decent guy. If you disagree, I am free to change my vote if I find your argument compelling. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 06:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) per above. by Buehl106·Talk·e-mail 06:40, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 5)  --   Joseph  TB  CT  CA   06:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 6)  Reception123 is a very trusted user and I don't see any issues with this request. I'm not worried about them becoming a 'poweruser' as I trust they're responsible and for the most part, over the course of almost 8 years, they've been responsible and almost generally always non-controversial.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:11, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 7)  No reason to oppose, and Reception123 is clearly capable of this right. Nale's response makes little sense and acts as if someone is forbidden from being both SRE and a Steward (Requests for Comment exists if you want to make a policy on that - there is no policy as it stands). "Reception123 has since backed down from their stance that users who leave messages should get to reinstate them upon removal, exempt from the edit warring policy, but only because of the conversation of removal of warnings" has nothing to do with this. Again, open an RfC if you want to change policy. Someone performing an action that you don't agree with doesn't mean they are unworthy of this right. Collei (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 8) Reception123 has maintained presence since near the start of Miraheze as an entity and was active on its predecessors as well.  They are well-regarded and trusted by the community and thus a logical choice for a maintainer role on IRC as outlined above. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 17:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 9)  Same as above application/nomination, trusted and active user, no issues with this. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) Oppose for several reasons.
 * 1) This request was immediately following Universal Omega's request. Why did you choose to make one then, and not the day before?
 * 2) Hats: This user is already both a Steward and SRE, which I believe there should not be both, and group contact on top of that? This is how "power-users" are formed and it is not good. There should be a limit on how many hats one person can have, and this should be it as well.
 * 3) For the same reason I opposed your RfS: I do not like the idea of inventing your own rules or treating sysops as freemen or even justifying actions on that alone. Community discussions are important, and sysops answer to the community. Reception123 has since backed down from their stance that users who leave messages should get to reinstate them upon removal, exempt from the edit warring policy, but only because of the conversation of removal of warnings. The subject of sysops declaring themselves exempt from edit warring did not come up. I do not want "I'm a group contact so I am right" coming to IRC.
 * 4) With Universal Omega's request above, there is no more need for any group contacts. Naleksuh (talk) 07:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would like to note, that this was a nomination from me, and was my idea, not Reception123's initial idea. Me reasoning for this, is that I believe in balancing things out, and Reception123's and my timezones are almost opposites, and with us both very active, one of us would almost always be around. It's understandable that John can't always be around, and lately has not been to much, as such I feel that if my request above is successful, I'd still be the only truly active GC, which doesn't help the situation of not enough GCs. It would be nice to have at least one more there as well. The current situation is almost no GCs being truly active and should both these requests be successful ensure in the future we have more GCs, and it is not dependent on just one for some things at a given time. Universal Omega (talk) 07:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * As for the part of "inventing rules" I am sure that I have explained my reasoning before but it seems maybe it was not understood. I'll explain again. Not all rules must be explicitly written down in unambiguous terms - there will be conventions and practices that have developed over time. If the community doesn't like those it can vote and create policies. As for "users who leave messages should get to reinstate them upon removal" that was the practice that was followed by other administrators as well, until the community voted to repeal it. I am not one to claim "I am right" and accusing me of such behavior demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge about me and how I frequently encourage community discussions and RfCs to clarify ambiguous positions. As for the hats issue, I would generally agree with that statement but unfortunately the reality is that we don't have enough trusted volunteers to fill out these positions. If we did, I would not have accepted to run. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 13:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  per Naleksuh. I have nothing personally against Reception123, but I really don't want a 'cabal' here. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 08:21, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it might be pertinent to consider my reply and not simply choose to believe the narrative that Naleksuh has created without being aware of the context. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 13:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the context. I understand that you believe it was a convention. But that doesn't mean you have to do it, nor does it mean edit warring to follow it. In particular, one result of that discussion is that "unwritten customs" are just that -- "customs" and should not be treated like policies or result in sanctions. The problem was "unwritten customs" being used to enact policies without them being policies, and I don't really think that was ever a custom. And even if we were to ignore that, it doesn't affect any of the other points-- both that CosmicAlpha is already requesting and that I do not any one person to have too many hats-- you already have more than I think one person should be able to -- no need for more on top of that! Naleksuh (talk) 17:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * > I am aware of the context. I understand that you believe it was a convention. But that doesn't mean you have to do it, nor does it mean edit warring to follow it. In particular, one result of that discussion is that "unwritten customs" are just that -- "customs" and should not be treated like policies or result in sanctions. The problem was "unwritten customs" being used to enact policies without them being policies, and I don't really think that was ever a custom.
 * You have been informed many times before that Miraheze does not follow Wikipedia policies. Please see WPESSAY and WPPOLICY. Just because you don't agree on what is and isn't a convention doesn't mean that Reception123 is unable to become an IRC Group Contact. Everything that you mentioned there has nothing to do with being an IRC Group Contact.
 * > And even if we were to ignore that, it doesn't affect any of the other points-- both that CosmicAlpha is already requesting and that I do not any one person to have too many hats-- you already have more than I think one person should be able to -- no need for more on top of that!
 * Why? If you want there to be a limit to how many roles someone can have, open an RfC, instead of opposing a vote for IRC group contact rights due to your opinion on what non-existent rules should become policies. Collei (talk) 22:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You have been informed many times before that Miraheze does not follow Wikipedia policies. Nowhere in my comment did I mention Wikipedia. Also, you might have the roles reversed. Reception123 was the one trying to treat customs like policies, and I was the one saying no they aren't policies. So, "Miraheze doesn't follow Wikipedia policies" would actually support my case.
 * Why? If you want there to be a limit to how many roles someone can have, open an RfC, instead of opposing a vote for IRC group contact rights due to your opinion on what non-existent rules should become policies. That idea can differ between people and is not something that's easy to measure. That's why I do it this way. If it makes you feel any better, some people blanketly oppose all RfAs because they think there are too many sysops. I don't do that! Naleksuh (talk) 17:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "Nowhere in my comment did I mention Wikipedia." - Yes you did. You are discussing an edit warring, 3RR, etc. policy like they apply here.
 * "That idea can differ between people and is not something that's easy to measure. That's why I do it this way. If it makes you feel any better, some people blanketly oppose all RfAs because they think there are too many sysops. I don't do that! " - I have no idea what this means, but it just seems like "X is worse than Y, so Y is not bad". Collei (talk) 18:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there a 2RR policy here? Naleksuh said I was edit warring for reverting his reinstation of a RevDeled edit. See here. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 18:55, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There is not an edit warring or revert rule policy that I can find at all. Of course, repeatedly re-instating the same edit is disruptive, so action would be taken against it, but claiming that our revert rule and exceptions are the exact same as Wikipedia doesn't comply with WPPOLICY. Collei (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, what I was doing was not disruptive - I was removing content that had already been removed and RevDeled. Naleksuh said that what I was doing was disruptive because it was edit warring. See my talk page and Agent Isai's for more. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 21:01, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd ask Agent Isai for an opinion on this because I am obviously biased against Nale at this point, so I don't want to weigh in on things where I may be unintentionally effected by this bias unless I really need to weigh in. Collei (talk) 21:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 22:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The 3-revert-rule is a Wikipedia policy, though people tend to apply it here when trying to prove themself innocent of edit warring (i.e. I wasn't edit warring, I reverted 3 times in 24 hours and 1 second!). I don't think I've ever mentioned the 3-revert rule myself. I believe that edit warring is considered on a case by case basis, and that when your edit is reverted, you should not reinstate it with very limited exceptions. I do my best to follow this rule myself as well. The content had not been revdelled when I started reverting (and I only reverted once, but Bbbtest revered twice, reverting two different people), but once it had been, I did not revert again. I am also sad to hear that you are "biased against me", but I hope this clears up anything that was vague. Let me know if you are still confused as to what I mean. Naleksuh (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am also sad to hear that you are "biased against me"
 * Perhaps it was too harsh by mistake but the arguments on Discord/IRC over what I feel are usually petty things make it very difficult to talk to you. I don't mean that in a rude way, but I'm not the only one who's expressed such a concern. Collei (talk) 22:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe that Naleksuh is (overall) in the right and has made valuable contributions to Miraheze, though I do think that he should try to AGF more and be less combative. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:45, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

MacFan4000's request for IRC Group Contact
Basically for the same reasons as in the above to requests. At least 2 or 3 new GCs would be a good idea so that we have active and available people who can deal with GC related requests. I am currently a GC for a different project, thus I am familiar with the policies and procedures, and am also already in the private GC IRC channel (run by Libera staff). I am reasonably active on IRC and can often be reached with a ping. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 13:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Questions for candidate

 * 1) Below in the oppose section you said, "A private discussion between Miraheze staff members", do you feel private discussions should be a preliminary aspect of starting community discussions like this? It's interesting that 3 requests have come at once following a discussion that is not public and involving 2 groups you're labelling as staff when neither are Board appointed? Miraheze has had a long history of having a closed 'old boys' style club where decisions were made in private involving groups that either a) shouldn't be discussing community affecting things privately (stewards) or b) shouldn't be having a major influence on community aspects by definition (SRE). I find it slightly concerning that this line of proposals is coming out of re-igniting such a private and exclusive club. John (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * We simply were talking about and agreeing on the fact that we really need to have another GC that has more availability. I want to make it clear that I did not start the conversation, though I did participate in it. Certainly it may have been a good idea for the discussion to have been held publicly.
 * So my point is more around why does such a channel where a community role and non community role co-exist that is utilised seemingly in such a way that public discussions can be usurped into a private environment to exclude the community from engaging in discussions/decisions initially that revolve around them? John (talk) 22:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Honestly, one could argue that these requests would serve as a public discussion, and if people agree with the issue they can support the request and if they don't they can oppose it. The private discussion ultimately lead to public discussion through these posts. I see no reason that such a private channel could stay in existence so long as more of these discussions are held publicly and no final decision is reached in the private channel. In this case the only "decisions" that took place were me and UO individually deciding to post these requests. I will also mention that I wasn't even part of this channel until yesterday. Also re: your statement about the use of the word staff, I wasn't aware that there was any official definition? I used the term loosely. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So you see no reason a private channel can't exist to have discussions that should be public but aren't because people who are 'lucky' to be in the channel choose to have such discussions? John (talk) 22:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I never said that. This was more to get support from other people before starting a public discussion. If nobody had agreed that the issue was valid i would not have been pursued any further. For community matter I would always ultimately want public input on the matter, and we are getting it through these requests. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You say that's not the case, but then immediately go to say if this 'private channel' had not agreed it was a problem, you wouldn't have consulted the community - who are the ones who should decide if there is a problem in the first place. Or would you then gone into a public channel to start a discussion over what you had discussed in the private channel that no one agreed with you on? John (talk) 22:48, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Had I been the one starting the conversation, I would have done so publicly. Ether way I probably would have eventually some day posted this request. I had been thinking about it from time to time, but I don't often start discussions, nor do I very often participate in them. I also have no knowledge of any of the previous ones that took place in this channel. In this case requesting a role is a personal decision, and it was helpful to hear opinions before deciding to request the position. If I had decided I wanted even more opinions, I would have talked to more people. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 23:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) What steps would you take to ensure the community remains uninfluenced by such private and closed venues where the community can not suitably or appropriately assess need, necessity or content of such non-sensitive discussions? John (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, I did not start the conservation. I think this would be a better question for to answer. Maybe in the future we hold discussions like this publicly. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I asked explicitly what you would do. John (talk) 22:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I would make sure that if I start a discussion like this I do it publicly unless there is some reason it absolutely has to be private. This one probably could have been public. If somebody does start one of these discussions in private we can make sure not to come to a final decision until public discussion has taken place.

Support

 * 1)  Has both a good reason to request this right and it's already an IRC regular. OrangeStar (talk) 16:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  Diversification with trusted users that are also IRC regulars is wise.  MacFan4000 has proven to be both. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 16:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1)  Why does everyone want this right all of sudden? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 10:42, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just 3 people have requested this. I guess originally it was because there was only one group contact, now it's because there are no group contacts. OrangeStar (talk) 15:50, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The original reason was because as of late, the only GC, John has not been on IRC much as of late, and thus it would be good to have somebody who is active and available. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 19:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  I'm not familiar enough with MacFan4000 to vote on this one, so abstain. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Apart from being rather inactive on IRC compared to CosmicAlpha and Reception123, I also find them to be much more problematic both with being more personal and ruder. Also this person used op permissions for personal issues once (disclaimer: I was the target; but it was still a personal issue). Plus, if CosmicAlpha and Reception123's requests pass, there will be no need for FOUR group contacts on such a small project. Please stop this "trend". Naleksuh (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not at all inactive. I am usually available if you ping me. It is frankly disappointing that we are unable to move past previous mistakes which can be learned from. I will note that I made this request following an internal discussion. I will also clarify for other voters that I did not misuse permissions. I was a channel moderator at the time, (and still am). I decided that because of what was happening, a ban was needed. Later another moderator disagreed with the ban and removed. Another moderator had told me at the time of the ban, that they were fully ok with it. It also was not at all for personal reasons. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 17:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Internal to what? There's currently only one group contact. Naleksuh (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * A private discussion between Miraheze staff members (SRE, stewards etc). MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 17:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That's another reason then. I would like to keep groups seperate and have them simply do what they are meant for; not draw some sort of "line" or have a private club. This is actually one of the reasons why SRE are no longer called sysadmins and a lot of their responsibilities were broken up into elsewhere. If you consider these past actions mistakes that you have learned from, I guess that's better than nothing, but there is certainly not a need for four group contacts, especially picked from people who already do far too many other things Naleksuh (talk) 17:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  Similar lines above, permissions have previously been used to be push a personal opinion/side of an argument rather than acting in a neutral capacity. Response to the question I posted as well does not provide me much confidence that they'll act in the community interest as they accepted a private channel to exclude the community from initial discussions is okay where the membership of the channel is decided by those not appointed to manage such a channel bit rather by virtue of their roles in either community or non community environments. John (talk) 22:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That was a single incident. I have learned from that, and now would not make a such a ban without first consulting other moderators unless nobody else was around and it was extremely obvious that a ban was needed. I will restate though that it was not at all for personal reasons, from what I can recall, conduct was getting out of hand and discussions not directly involving me were getting heated. Once again it was not my decision to hold this conversation privately. I would always act in community interest.
 * Respectfully, I find this to be a misread of today's situation. While I believe I understand your opposition to the existence of private channels more generally, private channels do have a role in coordinating relevant sensitive volunteer actions - the use of one such channel was critical in preventing widespread panic during the November/December outages as internal volunteer discussions about recovery were underway.
 * Such a chat taking place in general channels during the incident would have been rife with interruptions, disrupted other necessary support conversations, and been prone to misinterpretations that would have further slowed progress/damaged trust in the Miraheze platform, though admittedly communications weren't perfect in spite of that use.
 * MacFan's 'acceptance' of the channel in question was unrelated to this specific request for GC, but was instead prompted by UO rectifying a long-term disconnect in bridging similar Discord and IRC channels that serve the same legitimate coordination purposes.
 * I do agree that brief discussion about "Hey, there's a need for more GCs, let's put this to the community to decide" probably should have taken place in general instead of a private channel, but the CN was viewed as the correct public forum to broach this for public debate.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 23:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would agree with NotAracham on this front. The use of private channels are employed in some scenarios when it comes to sensitive information, as NotAracham stated with the db141 outages. While that may have not been the case here, the conversations in question that were done in private channels and served as preliminary ideas. It was not as if the solution that came out of the discussion was to appoint 3 new group contacts without community input. The decision was made to ask for community input. The public has the opportunity to voice their opinions here, now. Just because conversations about Group Contacts were made in private channels does not mean that they were bad. Plenty of conversations are had privately for varying reasons. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I respectfully would disagree that the use of such a channel during the data recovery incident was useful. In my view (and SREs and the Boards), it contributed to a fragmentation of discussion and ultimately lead to the community being poorly informed and at times - misinformed about the situation. This was picked up by SRE and it was agreed that said channel should not be used in the future for such discussions. Therefore, I would argue the justification for the channels existence is moot if that's the primary example. John (talk) 23:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you proposing to delete/archive the channel? BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not explicitly making such a proposal - I'm merely pointing out that public discussions should be public and private discussions private - to channel appears to be used in a way to hide the public discussions at times and publicise the private discussions that should be private. I imagine if we audit the channel, a lot of discussions would either be acceptable to be public or would be deemed private and as such should not be in such a 'public' channel. John (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I imagine a review of conversations can be undertaken then. I would ask though for you to reconsider your oppose of MacFan4000. Other than that mishap, they've been an exemplary member in the Miraheze community and are trusted. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:47, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Establish a "Translator Wiki" for global translators
Before I get started, let me state one thing: I don't know if Miraheze already has such a wiki to help translators in wikis like MetaWiki discuss translation norms.

A simple description of the problem scenario: a translator of a language translates a page and is unsure whether there is a de facto specification for some aspect, which results in a translation that differs from the rest of the page and ultimately makes the content incomprehensible to users.

One possible version: a translator's space with a translator's noticeboard, a translation norm and a translator's teahouse to address this type of problem.

For this one possible scenario, it is also considered that for other wikis that may need to be regulated, a separate translator space may not meet the needs, so a wiki may be needed to solve the problem.

So,

Solution - Translator Wiki

Site address: translator.miraheze.org

Acting on:

1) Norms in proactively accepted global wiki

2) A teahouse for translators

3) Some of the common translation norms in force for the global wiki

Reason for establishment：

See A simple description of the problem scenario and One possible scenario .

The specific implementation of the translator's wiki and related policies are subject to discussion.

Thanks. Chisato (talk) 13:07, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm not against giving translation more attention especially since I think the way it's done now is problematic at best, but I'm not sure an entirely split wiki is proportionate. This seems like it would fit in an expanded guide for translators to learn the basics and its talk page that functions as a translation noticeboard. The suggestion seems to be 3 pages tops of content and could be more concise than that. If in the general sense, there is TranslateWiki.net though I'm not entirely sure what goes on there and couldn't say if it helps this niche. --Raidarr (talk) 14:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Set up under the right condition, this could be a useful tool. However, it would require creation of the "Global Translator" group, which would have to be an RfC. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 15:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, so I'm keeping the namespace instead (the namespace can be changed to anything else like that depending on the discussion). Chisato (talk) 15:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I hadn't fully considered the 'global translator' thing. Honestly, we have such a limited and scattered group of translators in the first place that I would also oppose that role specifically. We don't even have a good way of holding the Meta translators we have accountable, I've seen enough questionable translations that I've been meaning to check them out but I lack the native understanding to know if the translated version is the same grade as the English understanding. Not enough wikis utilize the mechanic and in my frank opinion I think there's not much translation here does that can't be achieved by end users with one of numerous plugins on their browser. I'd revisit this if it is demonstrated that there is actually a need and for that matter, volunteering base to do it. And yes, establishing global translator as a group means this should be discussed in an RfC, but it is useful to discuss here so a concise RfC can be formed, if it is necessary. --Raidarr (talk) 15:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * (To BrandonWM and Raidarr) Actually, there is no need for a new global user group, which is a wiki for coordinating translations. However, this led me to consider a new possibility. For "multilingual wikis" (generally referring to wikis with the translation extension enabled), a new global user group can indeed be created for all "multilingual wikis" that voluntarily accept translator wikis for translation work management. A user group is granted to all users by default (the permission is translation), but the translation quality is obviously poor (especially fully machine translation), and those who have not improved will be reminded several times by stewards or "translate clerks", and then stewards or "translate clerks" can remove their translator rights. Chisato (talk) 00:05, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This may provide a new option for translation work for the newly created "multilingual wiki". Chisato (talk) 00:07, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Notice regarding spambot accounts
There have been some worries expressed regarding the fact that registered spambot accounts who have not yet edited due to our abuse filters might be "sleeper accounts" and be reactivated at some stage and get through the filters. Additionally, for a while now users have complained that they don't know who the users in Special:ListUsers are and why they are attached to their wikis. And least importantly, it would be nice if we could have more accurate statistics for how many users we have not counting all the spambots. For this reason, the Steward team is considering a mass global lock of all accounts that: (a) fit a regex for known spambots (this is private as if it were public it could be exploited by them), (b) were created more than a year ago, (c) have 0 edits on any wiki. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 07:50, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Concur. An account with no edits for a year?  If it's a legitimate user, he can always pick a different user name and start over.   20:35 17-Mar-2023 20:35, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Or request an unlock. I imagine we can be very lenient towards any user locked in this way who requests an unlock. -- Void  Whispers 20:37, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

logo scaling and format
Hi! Sorry if I'm asking something obvious. What is the best logo format to use, and should I scale in specific width or hight? is it ok if the logo is a vector with transparent. Now I use this file: https://static.miraheze.org/timelabwiki/5/50/This_is_Timelab_logo.png but it is not scaled correctly. Marieke Timelab (talk) 14:28, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Preferable resolution is 135x135px, format can be either svg or png. KatozzKita (talk) 16:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Stopping donation messages that appear in every wiki
how to stop

THEY'RE EVEN MORE ANNOYING THAN ADS

H A M 1 (talk) 20:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I believe there is no way to get rid of them until they clear them. All they are trying to get more money since domain prices have skyrocketed recently. They also don't get paid from companies for ads, and they don't want to resort to doing that. Sorry, that's all I could do, Commetiaa (talk) 21:05, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * They're needed unless you want to see full page banner ads :)
 * Once we get enough funds to secure Miraheze for the next year, they'll stop. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 21:17, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we should run them for longer. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 03:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * User talk:Agent Isai Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I donated a little bit of money, will they stop appearing for me? I wasn't particularly bothered by them, I was just wondering. Bonbonyoshi (talk) 09:44, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I think there are only two ways to get rid of them. One, you use the method above your comment, and use those steps; or just wait until they have enough money for the next year. Commetiaa (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

My Infobox extends over the entire page
Hi!

I started a private wiki yesterday, and I began importing some templates from Wikipedia, especially infoboxes. I've noticed a problem: infoboxes do not line up on the right side of the article, but run the length of the page. It's not very nice and I'd like to fix it, but the problem is that I know almost nothing about wiki coding. Does anyone have a solution?

Thanks a lot in advance! and sorry for broken English :) L&#39;Anonyme16 (talk) 10:04, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia stores the infobox styling in . The default Wikipedia infobox styling is

/* Infobox template style */ .infobox { border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; border-spacing: 3px; background-color: #f8f9fa; color: black; /* @noflip */ margin: 0.5em 0 0.5em 1em; padding: 0.2em; /* @noflip */ float: right; /* @noflip */ clear: right; font-size: 88%; line-height: 1.5em; width: 22em; }
 * I instead place it inside the infobox which avoids the need to refresh my browser and updated immediately


 * - PercyUK (talk) 10:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your answer! I tried to place this code into my infobox but it didn't change anything. That's weird. --L&#39;Anonyme16 (talk) 11:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, nevermind. It works now. Thank you so much! --L&#39;Anonyme16 (talk) 11:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Can someone unblock my IP address please?
Hello, I have a question: Can someone unblock my IP address please? The main reason for that is because I want to change my password, since I feel that it's hacked, especially since there are edits I didn't even do. But when I click forgot password, it tells me that my IP address is blocked. Can someone unblock it please? CJWorldGame32125 (talk) 11:15, 18 March 2023 (UTC) CJWorldGame32125 (talk) 11:15, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This should probably be put on the Stewards' noticeboard. Collei (talk) 18:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What is your IP? If you don't want to share it, e-mail stewards. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 18:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah no, don't post your IP here. Simply send an email to stewards with a full copy of the block message, and we'll figure out the best way to help you. -- Void  Whispers 19:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have striked the first part of my comment. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 19:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

How to move forward from the "old-boys club"
Hello everyone. As you may know, the private club issue is one that has been going on on Miraheze for a very long time now. I am not the only one who has noticed it, many people have including the founder of Miraheze.

There is a continued issue of using Miraheze private platforms for discussions and treating them as consensus, often times either without a basis in policy for doing so or even opposite that (i.e. "consensus among administrators for X" which is an oxymoron because the purpose of sysops are to answer to the community).

It may be possible to simply note in policy that consensus which was not held publicly on-wiki is not consensus, and is nothing more than the actions of one person. An advisory to simply not have these discussions or release them on-wiki may also work.

The problem though, is that these are not discussions of a specific group, but rather just anyone in a so-called club. For instance, ridiculing someone for not knowing that examples of abusive messages from an IRC op discussion had come from someone who was not an IRC op. Even though they had no reason to be there.

The issues with pile-on attacks include:
 * A user who blamed software failures on one specific wiki creator, citing a message that did not happen (even if it did happen, software bugs are software bugs and this does not mean an unpaid volunteer doing their job should be put on blast including to new users)
 * An RFC on how to archive a thread on one specific person's talk page (not how to archive threads on talk pages in general, just one specific person's talk page)
 * Multiple people noted in this discussion that it bordered on harassment
 * More recently, the IRC issues including:
 * Incivility, targetted attacks, and name-calling (VCP violations), including from a current global sysop
 * When asked about it on-wiki, rather than apologizing they chose to repeat the insults. I did not respond to it because it was disrespectful and not to involve myself in VCP violations that I assumed would soon be cleaned up, but it has simply sat there because Raidarr is not me, this leads directly into the next issue:
 * Creating a pseudo-whitelist of users who are allowed to violate the VCP

This morning I was informed by user John that he wrote to the Board about Zppix's consistent and targeted harassment against [me]. The issue is, it is not just Zppix. While Zppix does have a history of this as seen in their user rights log, it doesn't solve the problem for anyone else nor does it address the overall issue.

I see multiple ways to solve this issue:
 * Limit private channels to those who actually need them (i.e. anyone under NDA)
 * Right now there are a bunch more channels such as ones for wiki creators and CVT. And there are people running around in other ones. Apparently I was supposed to know that the messages out of a chanop discussion were written by someone who wasn't a chanop.
 * Restrictions on citing private discussions for public actions
 * This has been an issue both with power-users and cases by individual (i.e. see the page history of Miraheze Volunteers)
 * Removal of userrights for users involved with the private club
 * I opened an RfDS for Reception123, however most of the voters simply said "Reception123 didn't say the things that Zppix said, Zppix said the things that Zppix said" without addressing anything else in the request
 * This makes me concerned people in the so-called club will simply back up each other, resulting in this going nowhere.

Worsely, there has been a continued attempt to protect this group. For example, when evidence of harassment was posted by the user asked to review it, a removal of permissions request was started for that user. No, not the user who said the harassing messages, but removal of permissions for the user who brought them to light. And moreover, for ONLY that person, with no action against anyone else. For this reason, I have created two seperate sections, with the involved users section coming second.

Discuss what you think of these ideas, or, come up with your own. Naleksuh (talk) 17:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved users

 * 1)  Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 19:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What exactly are you supporting? This invites critical thinking with several paths of travel. --Raidarr (talk) 21:01, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "I see multiple ways to solve this issue" Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 02:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * And what are those ways? BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 03:19, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * They are listed by Naleksuh. %+Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What are the ways you support? You seem to be supporting nothing right now because there's no rationale attached to your support message. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 04:21, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  I find the way the proposed discussion is framed to be very problematic and can't/won't engage further with it for that reason. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments by involved users

 * 1) Just to be clear here, facts are not moral judgements. Facts are facts. Saying that you are the most willfully ornery user on the platform is a fact. You constantly are rude and disrespectful to countless users. Raidarr did not violate the VCP in that case by calling you out, just like I am not violating the VCP by calling you out. If you consider everything directed at you that is not the most respectful thing in the world, then you need to reconsider what exactly your thought process is. Miraheze does not function without civility, and you have shown no ability to do that. Again, I am not violating the VCP here by calling you out. A fact is not a moral judgement, it is a fact. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 18:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you wish to comment on the fact that volunteers in the subject channel have harassed users? That is afterall a fact as well. John (talk) 18:41, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I've been told before that I shouldn't speak about Nale's behavior when he's talking about someone else as it looks like people are ganging up on him, but this is not about what he says to any particular person, but more about his general pattern, and, more recently, John completely believing everything Nale says.
 * This started after Nale wrote an email to John falsely claiming that he has been "harassed" and "gaslighted" in the server (Merriam Webster defines "harass" as "to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct" and "gaslight" as "to psychologically manipulate (a person) usually over an extended period of time so that the victim questions the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and experiences confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, and doubts concerning their own emotional or mental stability" - keep this in mind).
 * Nale has never been "gaslighted". He accused Agent of gaslighting him when Agent said that a message was posted in the wiki creators channel telling everyone to not approve wiki requests until a bug is fixed, not long after which he mass-approved every open wiki request and falsely claimed I told him to do it. It turned out the bridge bot had a bug - I never knew bots could gaslight someone.
 * I also do not recall any instance of somebody creating an "unpleasant or hostile situation" for Nale. If anything, my first interactions with him when I was a new user felt unpleasant and hostile (these situations come to mind, but there are others: "You're the one being an asshole" directed towards me after he mass-approved wiki requests despite being told not to and "OK, I don't care what anyone else says. This is Dmehus all over again" when NotAracham wanted to change where the bot welcome messages are placed).
 * However, as a result of Nale's false accusations, John - without consulting anyone else for their side of story - leaked messages that he was told not to post publicly and misattributed the author. He claimed that Reception123 wrote messages written by Zppix and claimed that Nale was being "harassed" in private - however, I do not understand how someone can be placed in an "unpleasant or hostile situation" because of private messages that they were never aware of and that were never acted on. Collei (talk) 18:49, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't believe everything Naleksuh tells me - why do I need to when I have been given the logs from the Discord server that shows Zppix making numerous poor attempts as humour over the course of years. Naleksuh has never provided me with something that I took at face value - in fact I've usually known about things before Naleksuh has even bothered to reach out to me as I have been active in the community for several years. The conduct at the very least breaches the VCP for 'Be Respectful' as do you think it's respectful to spend years threatening to ban a user, telling people to delete them from the database, excluding them from discussions because you have the power to do they besides everyone else telling you not to? You are funnily enough taking what people tell you at face value without having the evidence to back it up.
 * "John - without consulting anyone else for their side of story" - I've spoken to people involved for years, I know their side of the story. I've overseen complaints about this conduct before, just because I didn't ask to speak to someone the other day does not mean I've never done it.
 * "leaked messages that he was told not to post publicly" - no one has ever actually told me that. This isn't covered by my NDA as well so I had the right to post them. If people didn't want these being public, they should have said them a private venue, not a known semi public one.
 * "and misattributed the author. He claimed that Reception123 wrote messages written by Zppix" I never said Reception posted them. I asked him his opinion on the anonymous comments.
 * I'd advice you get your facts correct before trying to disprove mine. John (talk) 18:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't believe everything Naleksuh tells me - why do I need to when I have been given the logs from the Discord server that shows Zppix making numerous poor attempts as humour over the course of years. Naleksuh has never provided me with something that I took at face value - in fact I've usually known about things before Naleksuh has even bothered to reach out to me as I have been active in the community for several years. The conduct at the very least breaches the VCP for 'Be Respectful' as do you think it's respectful to spend years threatening to ban a user, telling people to delete them from the database, excluding them from discussions because you have the power to do they besides everyone else telling you not to?
 * Nobody threatened to ban Nale, drop him from the database, etc. They were messages in private by one single user that were never acted upon. If you had evidence that these were actually acted upon or sent to Nale, it would be different. Maybe the humor would be more understandable if Nale was calling you an asshole, attacking new users for violating the "freedom" of readers by restricting a wiki to one skin, comparing NotAracham to Dmehus, attacking SRE for using hCaptcha, getting absurdly angry for BrandonWM closing a testwiki discussion, etc.
 * People never exclude Nale from discussions. However, when Nale acts uncivil, annoying, and rude to both new and experienced users, everyone dreads discussing with him anyway. I hate having to talk to him on Discord. The slightest disagreement with him will become a multiple day argument. It is exhausting.
 * You are funnily enough taking what people tell you at face value without having the evidence to back it up.
 * I am speaking from my own experience, not from anyone else's. Nobody told me to write this.
 * "leaked messages that he was told not to post publicly" - no one has ever actually told me that. This isn't covered by my NDA as well so I had the right to post them. If people didn't want these being public, they should have said them a private venue, not a known semi public one.
 * To quote the channel description: "this chat and things said here should usually not be mentioned outside of correspondence with its members."
 * I don't care about the NDA. That doesn't make it right. In fact, most forms of outing personal information are entirely legal and not in breach of any law or NDA.
 * "and misattributed the author. He claimed that Reception123 wrote messages written by Zppix" I never said Reception posted them. I asked him his opinion on the anonymous comments.
 * The context they were posted in most certainly made it sound like they came from Reception123. Nale even started a demotion proceeding against Reception123 based on them. Collei (talk) 19:08, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "Nobody threatened to ban Nale, drop him from the database, etc." Go back and read the comments I posted - that's exactly what they said? At no point have I ever said Naleksuh's actions have been acceptable - but volunteers are held to a higher standard - so surely they should y'know be held to a higher standard like policy says?
 * "I am speaking from my own experience, not from anyone else's" - and so am I, so what's the problem that we have two different experiences where I've been privy to the full messages, the context, working with people, and you have not.
 * "entirely legal and not in breach of any law or NDA" - so we agree that this isn't illegal and didn't breach the NDA. I may have violated trust and breached policy - but I did it to ensure those who harass people and breach the policy more severely can't get away with it. John (talk) 19:18, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Go back and read the comments I posted - that's exactly what they said? At no point have I ever said Naleksuh's actions have been acceptable - but volunteers are held to a higher standard - so surely they should y'know be held to a higher standard like policy says?
 * I did read the comments. Zppix did not make a serious threat. They were sarcastic/humorous "threats", and Nale was never aware of them. Given that they were never acted upon and that Nale was never aware of them, they could not have reached the definition of harassment by Merriam-Webster.
 * "I am speaking from my own experience, not from anyone else's" - and so am I, so what's the problem that we have two different experiences where I've been privy to the full messages, the context, working with people, and you have not.
 * Actually, this is just the begging the question fallacy, because your evidence of me not knowing the context is just an assertion that I don't know it.
 * "entirely legal and not in breach of any law or NDA" - so we agree that this isn't illegal and didn't breach the NDA. I may have violated trust and breached policy - but I did it to ensure those who harass people and breach the policy more severely can't get away with it.
 * I quite frankly do not care about the law. Law does not equal morality. Collei (talk) 19:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Can we both cool it please? Aggressive disagreement isn't bringing us any closer to resolving this issue. I'll not be making any comments regarding any user's conduct at this time. However, I will say that I'm heading a discussion regarding the future of the private channel. I fully intend to wind down any official use of the channel, but note that it will likely be retained as a location for off-topic discussions or as a place of last resort for matters that don't go under NDA, but also don't belong in public.
 * In regards to other matters brought up by the original post, "Restrictions on citing private discussions for public actions" is something I wholeheartedly agree with. If your edit is reverted please open discussions instead of reverting further, even if you are right. -- Void  Whispers 21:09, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll try to be more respectful, but I did not think that was disrespectful. I am exhausted with what Nale has put me through here.
 * Please also note that I got permission from Raidarr before posting my original reply here, to make sure it is civil. Collei (talk) 21:21, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I recall you sending me an initial message and agreeing that wasn't uncivil, but I don't see it here and at any rate I by no means reviewed what this turned into. I'm coming from the other side of the fence and I'd have to agree with John the way its being argued. I will reference both sides of 'private' vs 'whistleblowing' when I get to a response which is looking like I'll get it out either late today or tomorrow. --Raidarr (talk) 08:44, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I recall you sending me an initial message and agreeing that wasn't uncivil, but I don't see it here and at any rate I by no means reviewed what this turned into.
 * It is my original reply here. I never said anything about you having reviewed what this turned into. Collei (talk) 05:31, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * In response to your original query to me, I am aware that some users have harbored feelings against Naleksuh in that channel. However, I want to note all that Naleksuh has put members of the volunteer team through. They also fall under the VCP as a wiki creator and Meta interface administrator. Users have used the channel to vent because they’ve not been able to do so in public channels, Naleksuh having frequented them up until their ban. to the best of my knowledge, having spoken with him, was not serious about banning users from discussions just because they can. It was simply venting about a problematic user, something that I’ve done multiple times privately and many others do too. While there may have been some frustration, there never was an intention to do any of the things that were said in the channel. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 21:42, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I second this. Collei (talk) 21:48, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  everything except for "Restrictions on citing private discussions for public actions". I am not involved, as I do not have access to the private channel, so I will post it here. Demoting everyone that has access to the private channel would demote literally the entirety of Stewards, CVT, SRE, etc. Aside from that, as I explained to you before (to which your response was "You're the one being an asshole"), you were partially at fault for mass-approving wiki requests when told not to (or at least when you were meant to be told not to - as has been explained to you, the relay bot broke). I acknowledge that it was incorrect to assume that you must've received the message, but you also falsely claimed that you were told by myself and others to get up at 10 PM to go through the wiki requests, when in fact the most recent message regarding it was NotAracham stating that several features on wikis that are currently being approved are broken, and to not approve any wiki requests until the bug is fixed. As for the other points raised, go down to the involved user sections where I countered those. Collei (talk) 21:28, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just a friendly note, I don't think the oppose/support templates are appropriate here. This is not an RfC, this is just a discussion. OrangeStar (talk) 21:30, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No, he offered a bunch of suggestions and wants everyone to "discuss what you think of these ideas, or, come up with your own". Of course, my reply will be seen "a continued attempt to protect this group", but I don't care. Collei (talk) 21:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There's nothing to oppose, though. Either you have ideas or you don't. There has been no vote for a single idea yet. I'm sorry that you don't care about how your replies are viewed, though it does raise the question of what good it will do. Naleksuh (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I am opposing your ideas. Your post is based on an underlying assumption that I would agree there is a problem to solve, but there is no problem to begin with.
 * I'm sorry that you don't care about how your replies are viewed, though it does raise the question of what good it will do.
 * I care how my replies are viewed if some logical reasoning is given to the replies. "Protect[ing] this group" is not necessarily a bad thing if people disagree with your interpretation of the group. Collei (talk) 22:01, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, what's your interpretation, then? John has shared his, I have shared mine, it could be your turn next. Naleksuh (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have already shared it. Please read the entirety of my replies. Collei (talk) 22:39, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, please just leave this blurb in the 'involved' section next time it's moved considering at this point you've gotten into some spicy and frankly unwise, muddled discourse on the topic. It's an arbitrary distinction and there is no point edit warring on the semantic: it's the trap discussions like these invite and only diminishes what value they might have had. As long as the comment itself stands it shouldn't matter which section it is dropped in. I intend to leave a full comment on this myself soon but I had to comment on this tangent as it has become quite off base including the discussion with John, which I frankly believe you should cease. --Raidarr (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, I understand. Collei (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) I already agreed that the group should be disbanded. My resignation from SRE that I chose to stick to came from a multitude of reasons stemming from the events leading to this discussion, conduct of some volunteers, and recognition of my own actions surrounding recent events. I never ever agreed, and never willingly or knowingly took part in any of the, for lack of a better word to think of, "harrassment" that took place. I don't know if I'd characterise it as harassment exactly, as it wasn't said to the person directly, and as far as I know, meant as a joke for the most part. It was however disrespectful. Because of the numerous issues that has occurred I have also removed myself my being active on Discord or IRC, pending resolution to the future of the group, whereas I would then return to IRC and Discord. The fact that we operated without any community oversight or accountability goes against the core principles that is transparency in Miraheze. This is just some of my thoughts here and I may add more thoughts later, but I think it is very important that we be able to move past this in a more transparent way in the future. I don't agree with how it was put out to the community whatsoever, but I do think it's important for us to have community accountability and be respectful to all of our users regardless of their personal opinion on them, whether directly to them, or somewhere they can't see. I still however hold a very strong belief that if this went through proper channels, or even attempted to resolve between involved users, instead of posting a private chat, here, publicly things would have been a lot better, and we could have disbanded the channel anyway without the need for recent events. That is why I posted the revocation for John's Stewardship, because the way it was handled was unbecoming of the standards I had previously thought John was of.  Either way, I just feel Miraheze is so highly prone to drama, I have not regretted my decision to resign from SRE at all so far, and it allows me to attempt to focus on the community and rebuilding trust and transparency between all the core groups of Miraheze. My hope is that eventually things can move completely beyond these recent events. Universal Omega (talk) 09:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So, are you agreeing with the issue of an old-boys club? My concern in this discussion was people acting like the only harassment was Zppix's messages and nothing else, when infact there is a continued pattern of problems of targetting of pile-on attacks. Second, why do you say that you want more publicity while also saying John should have resolved it privately? Already by default it's a weird look to RfDS the person bringing to light abusive actions by another user, but with no proposed action for that user: this is a lot like trying to protect user 2. So, is it public or private? Can it be both? Naleksuh (talk) 17:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree there is an underlying problem. I also agree with transparency, but I think John should have at least talked with the users involved privately before posting publicly here. Not necessarily to hide it but to try and get the full context instead of posting things out of context here. I do not however agree that everyone even in the channel should have their rights revoked, as that would include most of CVT, and the entirety of Stewards, T&S, SRE, and the Board. Not everyone was involved in any sort of issue in the channel. And not everyone agrees with how things were treated. The channel should be disbanded but to say everyone should have rights revoked is wrong. Unless I misinterpretated what you meant by "Removal of userrights for users involved with the private club". But if that is what you meant, that is not even feasible for the continuation of Miraheze whatsoever, as it would effectively remove all advanced users in the core groups. To propose all be removed is absurd. Not even to protect members involved, but it just can't be done. I won't even try to defend myself or the group here, I know there was problems from users, I, and others could have been more vocal against it earlier, or even joking about such things, since like I said I never agreed with it. So I myself admit some wrongdoing in how a lot of things were recently handled. But how John handled things was no better. Things could have been talked about or confronted privately and then forwarded to the right channels immediately for reports. It was hardly necessary to post them above on something entirely unrelated, especially since at least from my understanding he has had them for quite a while longer than now, so my question was, why post messages from months ago, now, here. That was an issue as well, and as I have always held John in higher regards then that, that is why it was too far in my mind and I posted the revocation. I regret how a lot played out, but I still feel John went way to far with that, and internal conduct other than that was still not great hence another of the multiple reasons I resigned from SRE, and am no longer active on IRC or Discord until a resolution regarding the group is reached and things can move forward. To not associate myself with that, or to say or do something that would only further create conflict or issues within Miraheze. Universal Omega (talk) 18:18, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) I want to state for the record, that prior to the GC discussion, I had no involvement in the channel. I wasn't in it until a few days ago. Before that, I didn't even know it existed. From what I can tell, it has been around way, way longer than I have known about it. The leaked messages were also from discord from what I'm told, which I do not use, and I do not participate in or see anything that happens solely on discord. I believe that revoking rights from Reception123 or other users is 100% unnecessary. No doubt, mistakes were made, but this does not at all warrant removal of rights. I do believe that the channel will either be abandoned, or else its use will become fairly limited. My hope is that we can eventually move past these issues, and that Miraheze can continue providing services for years to come.
 * As an update, there was a conversation between the channel participants (no heavy involvement from me), and it has been decided that the channel will be abandoned. (Discord side will be archived and eventually deleted, IRC channel will likely get cleared out). MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 02:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "the" channel, singular? There are multiple channels being talked about here. Which channel do you mean? Naleksuh (talk) 02:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "The cabal" so to speak. (#miraheze-cabal). MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 02:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There is only one channel used by Miraheze volunteers for off-topic chatter. All other channels are strictly for role purposes and all messages in those channels strictly pertain to that. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 02:24, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * THATS A REAL CHANNEL??? I thought that was a joke! Yes that never should have existed but better late than never. What about the other channels though, that are just "non-NDA private channels just to be private"? Naleksuh (talk) 02:27, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There are none apart from things like the wiki creators chat or the CVT chat. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 02:29, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "The cabal" is a joke. I believe that Doug renamed it to "the cartel", but someone changed the name to "the cabal" later. I do not have the time to read any other replies. Collei (talk) 03:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The complaint originated by John is isolated to the single channel in question, to my understanding. I find discussion of the channel's contents and usual tone to be mis-characterized but attempts to defend its continued existence would be a misuse of the time of everyone here.
 * Role-specific channels (e.g. wiki creators, CVT) with a clearly outlined and limited purpose, which necessarily cannot be fully public in order to execute the duties of that role, should continue to exist. There are no complaints against contents of those channels (to my knowledge) and they are are necessary to support efficient function of those roles, though I'd invite suggestions for greater accountability of those channels if you feel that is needed.
 * Private off-topic channels, however, are just too much of a liability -- anything like what previously existed invites doubt and appearance of conflicts of interest, whether or not doubt is warranted.
 * I agree with the closure of the private off-topic channel (already mentioned by MacFan4000) as the only clear way to move forward from this chapter. This incident has also highlighted several policy gaps (and potential solutions) around volunteer well-being and resignation process that I hope will reach a positive outcome for stability of the project in the days and weeks ahead.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 02:59, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's particularly unusual for volunteers to discuss with each other in private. Twitter's Slack has an off topic channel, for example. When people work together, yes there will always be a place where they privately discuss or vent about off-topic things, especially when the volunteers get to know each other over time.
 * Yes, the messages were rude, but they were not harassment, and no action against Nale was taken due to their existence. Collei (talk) 03:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Which messages? The ones by Zppix? This discussion is about a much larger issue and a continued pattern of incidents. Also for the 2394872394823794823948723th time please stop calling me Nale. My name is Naleksuh. Naleksuh (talk) 03:32, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I did not re-read this before sending it. There will be some grammatical errors, redundant sentences, or words that I mixed up. I'm too busy to look through this.
 * Also for the 2394872394823794823948723th time please stop calling me Nale. My name is Naleksuh
 * I was never told that before, but I'll keep that in mind. It is not uncommon for people to abbreviate names. The name I go by in Grasscutters is  (referencing the Traveler x Collei headcanon in Genshin Impact), but people usually abbreviate it to  . I now know you prefer that I say Naleksuh, so I'll keep that in mind.
 * Which messages? The ones by Zppix? This discussion is about a much larger issue and a continued pattern of incidents
 * I've already talked about the stuff about blaming technical bugs on you. As for the RfC about how to archive threads on your talk page:
 * The way you described it, I thought it was on the Requests for Comment page or something. That certainly sounded out of character for Reception123 and generally the group you talk about, so I looked, and it seems that the supposed RfC was on the CN. What you are doing now is essentially an RfC about how to treat this "group". If Miraheze is run by its community, then yes, there will be discussions in public relating to established users.
 * And as for people that try to avoid you, single you out, or find you annoying: I don't think they should do that, but I also do not think that Reception123 (or anyone else, for that matter) needs to have their rights revoked. Naleksuh, you often say things that sound rude, and maybe you don't mean for them to, but over time, it makes you very difficult to talk to.
 * Rather than say "we shouldn't have added hCaptcha", you start a long discussion that felt like an attack towards members of SRE rather than the action itself. Near the time that you got banned from IRC, you were being annoying towards BrandonWM because of how he defined functionary. Maybe you don't mean to be annoying or offensive, but what you say does make people feel uncomfortable or annoyed around you.
 * Yes, I should not have said that I am biased against you. I should not have said something to the effect of "can you even read" when you mass-approved the recent wiki requests. You do have good ideas. However, the way you present them just makes people feel annoyed. I don't know a better way to put it than that. Collei (talk) 03:43, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This thread makes it seem like all of the mentioned events are part of a coordinated effort by a group to attack you when that is evidently not the case. There are far too many things to do and better things to spend time on so why would basically every volunteer devote themselves to persecuting you? Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:33, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Why have I been blocked?
I have been blocked on several wikis where I have never made a single edit, one is in Chinese, the other in Italian, both languages I do not understand. The reason in the italian wiki is that I posted meaningless content Inserimento di contenuti privi di senso, in fact I have not made a single edit in this wiki (why would I???). Lily talk and I will listen · Lilypond Wiki 20:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Possibly consult those wikis? Collei (talk) 20:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Also, I'll just add, if some are private wikis found using Special:WikiDiscover, (I have clicked on a few of these without realizing they were privte)... apparently once you land on one of these site's main page, it shows on their RC a new account being created. Sometimes the staff/volunteers of these wikis ban all usernames, thinking random people have access when we really don't (has happened to me on several private wikis), and just for landing on their **public** Main Page. I don't think they realize that we have access to view nothing else, and their banning is pretty much fruitless and silly, but it still happens regularly. If that's the case Lily, I wouldn't worry too much about it. For those where you've been falsely banned, I'm thinking you should be able to appeal on a user page and inform them of their mistake as Collei mentioned (depending on that wiki's settings)? | -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 20:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you; these are all private wikis, and they all have been closed. The bans just do not look nice im my user stats, otherwise I do not care. I think the admins do not know what they are doing, LilyLilyu - smile.svg talk and I will listen · Lilypond Wiki 20:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You're welcome Lily. :) I hear you, and I have thought the same of my own stats, but if anyone were to review the reasons for the blocks, they'd see we've never made edits in any of these communities. I suppose we could try to help educate these users on their meta/global user pages, though that's a lot of effort for something so silly! ;-) Cheers! | -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 21:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I realized I misread your earlier comment, the wikis are now closed, I see what you mean. In this case, I'd consider enquiring if these will stick on user stats after the wikis have gone dormant or are closed. | -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * By the time that they are actually deleted, they will no longer be in the database. Collei (talk) 01:03, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

ManageWiki help
How do I rename a permission group? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Edit your MediaWiki:Group- and MediaWiki:Group- -member pages. For example, if I wanted to rename the administrator group to "moderator", I'd edit MediaWiki:Group-sysop and MediaWiki:Group-sysop-member. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:16, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, how do I also change the internal name? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:41, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You'd have to delete the group and then make a new one with a new internal name. I wouldn't suggest you delete the administrators, bureaucrat, or autoconfirmed groups though as deleting those breaks ManageWiki and your wiki in general. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Could a rename option be added as a feature? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:07, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You can file a Phabricator task requesting it and we'll hopefully add it eventually. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 05:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Unrelated, but how does deleting autoconfirmed break MediaWiki? I already did that and nothing bad has happened. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:48, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * https://landar.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=5222 Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * All your users will now be subjected to the anti-spam global filters because the autoconfirmed group is the one which exempted them from that. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 13:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter. Only approved users can edit, and that group all ready has autoconfirmed permissions. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 20:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Special Signature
Hello! I would like to know how to have your name and signature different. I would like my name/signature to be, but when I put it as my signature, it gives me the code, not the picture. Also, is there a way to make a picture your actual user name? Or at least have your user name in a special font? I'm thinking about renaming myself Commetian Empire, with that font/picture. Thank you! Commetiaa (talk) 23:11, 20 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I strongly recommend not using a picture as your signature. Not only is there a risk of manipulation, but there is also a good likelihood that your signature will negatively impact loading times especially when you have multiple instances of your signature on the same page. Instead, as long as the font you want to use is commonly recognized by browsers (not sure how to check that at the moment), you can use some HTML formatting in your signature. Just be sure to check the box under your signature to have it treated as wikitext. For example, you could format your signature like: . Just note that not all fonts are available, and as I couldn't figure out what font your image uses, I'm not sure you'd be able to use it in your signature without getting the font imported for use in the site. --  Void  Whispers 01:19, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I looked where I got the signature, and the font is "Bilbo Swash Caps". I tried using your HTML, but it didn't do anything. So I'm guessing that that font isn't recognized here on Miraheze. Also, how do you (when you rename yourself) get your user name colored? I've seen it with multiple users like KumihoWolffey; but I've never found out how. Commetiaa (talk) 12:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Sigh
Hello, it is me, Collei. My Discord account tag is Colleiflower#2020. My Discord has apparently been disabled for being under 13, but I've actually indicated that I am fourteen.

I find it more probable that the reason I am actually banned is due to me repeatedly indicating that I am unwilling to report underage users and due to me sometimes deleting messages where people admitted to being under 13, so that the people won't get banned. Another hypothesis is me lying about being over 18 to Discord so that I could view NSFW channels. I am not sure which hypothesis is correct.

I quite frankly do not care. I can get unbanned by holding up a piece of paper with my ID etc. etc. to verify my age, but I am not going to do that. I don't trust Discord with my personal information.

I have an alt that I can use to evade the ban, which I will do, but I am not going to be as active there, as to not get caught by Discord.

You may reach me on Miraheze and Matrix as usual. Collei (talk) 17:24, 21 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Furthering the second hypothesis, I received the following warning email from Discord:
 * Hello,
 * Discord is focused on maintaining a safe and secure environment for our community. We've found your account to be in violation of our Terms of Service or Community Guidelines. As a result, we're issuing you this warning for the following reason:
 * Your account posted content that sexualized individuals under the age of 18, or was involved in servers dedicated to such unacceptable content.
 * If the behavior continues, you may be banned permanently.
 * Sincerely,
 * Discord Trust & Safety
 * Collei (talk) 17:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think you should be admitting on a public noticeboard that Discord banned your account for what it was banned for, and admitting you lied about being 18. Raichu&#39;s Endless Nights (talk) 14:27, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, the 'sigh'... are you implying you're angry/upset at Discord for banning your account after you've just admitted you're the one who did something wrong? Why are you posting this? Raichu&#39;s Endless Nights (talk) 14:29, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I am upset at Discord, because I'm probably the first person on the site to be banned for that. The ban reason also makes no sense, as it explicitly Collei (talk) 16:04, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I am upset at Discord, because I'm probably the first person on the site to be banned for that. The ban reason also makes no sense, as it explicitly Collei (talk) 16:04, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Transferring temporary wiki to permanent domain
How easy would it be to make my wiki with one domain now and then transfer the content to a different wiki once I gain ownership of that one? (I am currently trying to reopen and gain ownership of deepwoken.miraheze.org) Heroku (talk) 20:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Probably more trouble than needed. I've reopened the wiki so you can edit freely now. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 00:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)