Community noticeboard/Archive 37

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Establish a "Translator Wiki" for global translators
Before I get started, let me state one thing: I don't know if Miraheze already has such a wiki to help translators in wikis like MetaWiki discuss translation norms.

A simple description of the problem scenario: a translator of a language translates a page and is unsure whether there is a de facto specification for some aspect, which results in a translation that differs from the rest of the page and ultimately makes the content incomprehensible to users.

One possible version: a translator's space with a translator's noticeboard, a translation norm and a translator's teahouse to address this type of problem.

For this one possible scenario, it is also considered that for other wikis that may need to be regulated, a separate translator space may not meet the needs, so a wiki may be needed to solve the problem.

So,

Solution - Translator Wiki

Site address: translator.miraheze.org

Acting on:

1) Norms in proactively accepted global wiki

2) A teahouse for translators

3) Some of the common translation norms in force for the global wiki

Reason for establishment：

See A simple description of the problem scenario and One possible scenario .

The specific implementation of the translator's wiki and related policies are subject to discussion.

Thanks. Chisato (talk) 13:07, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm not against giving translation more attention especially since I think the way it's done now is problematic at best, but I'm not sure an entirely split wiki is proportionate. This seems like it would fit in an expanded guide for translators to learn the basics and its talk page that functions as a translation noticeboard. The suggestion seems to be 3 pages tops of content and could be more concise than that. If in the general sense, there is TranslateWiki.net though I'm not entirely sure what goes on there and couldn't say if it helps this niche. --Raidarr (talk) 14:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Set up under the right condition, this could be a useful tool. However, it would require creation of the "Global Translator" group, which would have to be an RfC. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 15:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, so I'm keeping the namespace instead (the namespace can be changed to anything else like that depending on the discussion). Chisato (talk) 15:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I hadn't fully considered the 'global translator' thing. Honestly, we have such a limited and scattered group of translators in the first place that I would also oppose that role specifically. We don't even have a good way of holding the Meta translators we have accountable, I've seen enough questionable translations that I've been meaning to check them out but I lack the native understanding to know if the translated version is the same grade as the English understanding. Not enough wikis utilize the mechanic and in my frank opinion I think there's not much translation here does that can't be achieved by end users with one of numerous plugins on their browser. I'd revisit this if it is demonstrated that there is actually a need and for that matter, volunteering base to do it. And yes, establishing global translator as a group means this should be discussed in an RfC, but it is useful to discuss here so a concise RfC can be formed, if it is necessary. --Raidarr (talk) 15:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * (To BrandonWM and Raidarr) Actually, there is no need for a new global user group, which is a wiki for coordinating translations. However, this led me to consider a new possibility. For "multilingual wikis" (generally referring to wikis with the translation extension enabled), a new global user group can indeed be created for all "multilingual wikis" that voluntarily accept translator wikis for translation work management. A user group is granted to all users by default (the permission is translation), but the translation quality is obviously poor (especially fully machine translation), and those who have not improved will be reminded several times by stewards or "translate clerks", and then stewards or "translate clerks" can remove their translator rights. Chisato (talk) 00:05, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This may provide a new option for translation work for the newly created "multilingual wiki". Chisato (talk) 00:07, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Notice regarding spambot accounts
There have been some worries expressed regarding the fact that registered spambot accounts who have not yet edited due to our abuse filters might be "sleeper accounts" and be reactivated at some stage and get through the filters. Additionally, for a while now users have complained that they don't know who the users in Special:ListUsers are and why they are attached to their wikis. And least importantly, it would be nice if we could have more accurate statistics for how many users we have not counting all the spambots. For this reason, the Steward team is considering a mass global lock of all accounts that: (a) fit a regex for known spambots (this is private as if it were public it could be exploited by them), (b) were created more than a year ago, (c) have 0 edits on any wiki. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 07:50, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Concur. An account with no edits for a year?  If it's a legitimate user, he can always pick a different user name and start over.   20:35 17-Mar-2023 20:35, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Or request an unlock. I imagine we can be very lenient towards any user locked in this way who requests an unlock. -- Void  Whispers 20:37, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

logo scaling and format
Hi! Sorry if I'm asking something obvious. What is the best logo format to use, and should I scale in specific width or hight? is it ok if the logo is a vector with transparent. Now I use this file: https://static.miraheze.org/timelabwiki/5/50/This_is_Timelab_logo.png but it is not scaled correctly. Marieke Timelab (talk) 14:28, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Preferable resolution is 135x135px, format can be either svg or png. KatozzKita (talk) 16:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

My Infobox extends over the entire page
Hi!

I started a private wiki yesterday, and I began importing some templates from Wikipedia, especially infoboxes. I've noticed a problem: infoboxes do not line up on the right side of the article, but run the length of the page. It's not very nice and I'd like to fix it, but the problem is that I know almost nothing about wiki coding. Does anyone have a solution?

Thanks a lot in advance! and sorry for broken English :) L&#39;Anonyme16 (talk) 10:04, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia stores the infobox styling in . The default Wikipedia infobox styling is

/* Infobox template style */ .infobox { border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; border-spacing: 3px; background-color: #f8f9fa; color: black; /* @noflip */ margin: 0.5em 0 0.5em 1em; padding: 0.2em; /* @noflip */ float: right; /* @noflip */ clear: right; font-size: 88%; line-height: 1.5em; width: 22em; }
 * I instead place it inside the infobox which avoids the need to refresh my browser and updated immediately


 * - PercyUK (talk) 10:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your answer! I tried to place this code into my infobox but it didn't change anything. That's weird. --L&#39;Anonyme16 (talk) 11:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, nevermind. It works now. Thank you so much! --L&#39;Anonyme16 (talk) 11:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Can someone unblock my IP address please?
Hello, I have a question: Can someone unblock my IP address please? The main reason for that is because I want to change my password, since I feel that it's hacked, especially since there are edits I didn't even do. But when I click forgot password, it tells me that my IP address is blocked. Can someone unblock it please? CJWorldGame32125 (talk) 11:15, 18 March 2023 (UTC) CJWorldGame32125 (talk) 11:15, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This should probably be put on the Stewards' noticeboard. Collei (talk) 18:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What is your IP? If you don't want to share it, e-mail stewards. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 18:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah no, don't post your IP here. Simply send an email to stewards with a full copy of the block message, and we'll figure out the best way to help you. -- Void  Whispers 19:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have striked the first part of my comment. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 19:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

sibebar help ?
Can someone help me modify sidebar on this wiki? https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sidebar

Marieke Timelab (talk) 15:50, 14 March 2023 (UTC)


 * also interested in this! ZBlace (talk) 15:51, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear on what your specific question/challenge is you want to solve. Here's MediaWiki's documentation on how to customize the sidebar, if you have a more specific question we're happy to help...
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 17:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If you can see the source of Sidebar page *https://timelab.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sidebar&action=edit, then you can also see it is not interpreted/used in Sidebar menu at all, as if there is override with defaults..is that not problematic? --18:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, it appears that there was a bad cached version of the page. I used the More >> Purge action to force a re-render and your sidebar changes now show up. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 19:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham thank you!
 * @Marieke Timelab any other help needed? ZBlace (talk) 19:56, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham are you sure it was cache issue? I tried purging it also but now did not get newest version :-(
 * -- ZBlace (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Bar contents are appearing, there are just issues with the source code as entered today. See attached screenshot, one of the issues is that they're trying to use inline links for partial text with  and , while MediaWiki only supports exact_pagename|text_to_display without brackets for the sidebar, to my understanding.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 18:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I added code for you and @Marieke Timelab to test out for the sidebar, you can find it on:
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Sidebar
 * It worked flawlessly on my personal instance, hope it helps! Cheers, --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 21:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham thank you...
 * Strange that sidebar would not support other type of links.
 * -- ZBlace (talk) 14:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Example Shot Of Sidebar.png


 * navigation
 * Commoning Art Practice
 * Reshaping Production
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/Knotfactory|Knotfactory
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/Knotplex|Knotplex
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MacFan4000's request for IRC Group Contact
Basically for the same reasons as in the above to requests. At least 2 or 3 new GCs would be a good idea so that we have active and available people who can deal with GC related requests. I am currently a GC for a different project, thus I am familiar with the policies and procedures, and am also already in the private GC IRC channel (run by Libera staff). I am reasonably active on IRC and can often be reached with a ping. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 13:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Questions for candidate

 * 1) Below in the oppose section you said, "A private discussion between Miraheze staff members", do you feel private discussions should be a preliminary aspect of starting community discussions like this? It's interesting that 3 requests have come at once following a discussion that is not public and involving 2 groups you're labelling as staff when neither are Board appointed? Miraheze has had a long history of having a closed 'old boys' style club where decisions were made in private involving groups that either a) shouldn't be discussing community affecting things privately (stewards) or b) shouldn't be having a major influence on community aspects by definition (SRE). I find it slightly concerning that this line of proposals is coming out of re-igniting such a private and exclusive club. John (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * We simply were talking about and agreeing on the fact that we really need to have another GC that has more availability. I want to make it clear that I did not start the conversation, though I did participate in it. Certainly it may have been a good idea for the discussion to have been held publicly.
 * So my point is more around why does such a channel where a community role and non community role co-exist that is utilised seemingly in such a way that public discussions can be usurped into a private environment to exclude the community from engaging in discussions/decisions initially that revolve around them? John (talk) 22:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Honestly, one could argue that these requests would serve as a public discussion, and if people agree with the issue they can support the request and if they don't they can oppose it. The private discussion ultimately lead to public discussion through these posts. I see no reason that such a private channel could stay in existence so long as more of these discussions are held publicly and no final decision is reached in the private channel. In this case the only "decisions" that took place were me and UO individually deciding to post these requests. I will also mention that I wasn't even part of this channel until yesterday. Also re: your statement about the use of the word staff, I wasn't aware that there was any official definition? I used the term loosely. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So you see no reason a private channel can't exist to have discussions that should be public but aren't because people who are 'lucky' to be in the channel choose to have such discussions? John (talk) 22:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I never said that. This was more to get support from other people before starting a public discussion. If nobody had agreed that the issue was valid i would not have been pursued any further. For community matter I would always ultimately want public input on the matter, and we are getting it through these requests. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You say that's not the case, but then immediately go to say if this 'private channel' had not agreed it was a problem, you wouldn't have consulted the community - who are the ones who should decide if there is a problem in the first place. Or would you then gone into a public channel to start a discussion over what you had discussed in the private channel that no one agreed with you on? John (talk) 22:48, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Had I been the one starting the conversation, I would have done so publicly. Ether way I probably would have eventually some day posted this request. I had been thinking about it from time to time, but I don't often start discussions, nor do I very often participate in them. I also have no knowledge of any of the previous ones that took place in this channel. In this case requesting a role is a personal decision, and it was helpful to hear opinions before deciding to request the position. If I had decided I wanted even more opinions, I would have talked to more people. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 23:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) What steps would you take to ensure the community remains uninfluenced by such private and closed venues where the community can not suitably or appropriately assess need, necessity or content of such non-sensitive discussions? John (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, I did not start the conservation. I think this would be a better question for to answer. Maybe in the future we hold discussions like this publicly. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I asked explicitly what you would do. John (talk) 22:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I would make sure that if I start a discussion like this I do it publicly unless there is some reason it absolutely has to be private. This one probably could have been public. If somebody does start one of these discussions in private we can make sure not to come to a final decision until public discussion has taken place.

Support

 * 1)  Has both a good reason to request this right and it's already an IRC regular. OrangeStar (talk) 16:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  Diversification with trusted users that are also IRC regulars is wise.  MacFan4000 has proven to be both. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 16:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1)  Why does everyone want this right all of sudden? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 10:42, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just 3 people have requested this. I guess originally it was because there was only one group contact, now it's because there are no group contacts. OrangeStar (talk) 15:50, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The original reason was because as of late, the only GC, John has not been on IRC much as of late, and thus it would be good to have somebody who is active and available. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 19:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  I'm not familiar enough with MacFan4000 to vote on this one, so abstain. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Apart from being rather inactive on IRC compared to CosmicAlpha and Reception123, I also find them to be much more problematic both with being more personal and ruder. Also this person used op permissions for personal issues once (disclaimer: I was the target; but it was still a personal issue). Plus, if CosmicAlpha and Reception123's requests pass, there will be no need for FOUR group contacts on such a small project. Please stop this "trend". Naleksuh (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not at all inactive. I am usually available if you ping me. It is frankly disappointing that we are unable to move past previous mistakes which can be learned from. I will note that I made this request following an internal discussion. I will also clarify for other voters that I did not misuse permissions. I was a channel moderator at the time, (and still am). I decided that because of what was happening, a ban was needed. Later another moderator disagreed with the ban and removed. Another moderator had told me at the time of the ban, that they were fully ok with it. It also was not at all for personal reasons. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 17:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Internal to what? There's currently only one group contact. Naleksuh (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * A private discussion between Miraheze staff members (SRE, stewards etc). MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 17:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That's another reason then. I would like to keep groups seperate and have them simply do what they are meant for; not draw some sort of "line" or have a private club. This is actually one of the reasons why SRE are no longer called sysadmins and a lot of their responsibilities were broken up into elsewhere. If you consider these past actions mistakes that you have learned from, I guess that's better than nothing, but there is certainly not a need for four group contacts, especially picked from people who already do far too many other things Naleksuh (talk) 17:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  Similar lines above, permissions have previously been used to be push a personal opinion/side of an argument rather than acting in a neutral capacity. Response to the question I posted as well does not provide me much confidence that they'll act in the community interest as they accepted a private channel to exclude the community from initial discussions is okay where the membership of the channel is decided by those not appointed to manage such a channel bit rather by virtue of their roles in either community or non community environments. John (talk) 22:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That was a single incident. I have learned from that, and now would not make a such a ban without first consulting other moderators unless nobody else was around and it was extremely obvious that a ban was needed. I will restate though that it was not at all for personal reasons, from what I can recall, conduct was getting out of hand and discussions not directly involving me were getting heated. Once again it was not my decision to hold this conversation privately. I would always act in community interest.
 * Respectfully, I find this to be a misread of today's situation. While I believe I understand your opposition to the existence of private channels more generally, private channels do have a role in coordinating relevant sensitive volunteer actions - the use of one such channel was critical in preventing widespread panic during the November/December outages as internal volunteer discussions about recovery were underway.
 * Such a chat taking place in general channels during the incident would have been rife with interruptions, disrupted other necessary support conversations, and been prone to misinterpretations that would have further slowed progress/damaged trust in the Miraheze platform, though admittedly communications weren't perfect in spite of that use.
 * MacFan's 'acceptance' of the channel in question was unrelated to this specific request for GC, but was instead prompted by UO rectifying a long-term disconnect in bridging similar Discord and IRC channels that serve the same legitimate coordination purposes.
 * I do agree that brief discussion about "Hey, there's a need for more GCs, let's put this to the community to decide" probably should have taken place in general instead of a private channel, but the CN was viewed as the correct public forum to broach this for public debate.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 23:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would agree with NotAracham on this front. The use of private channels are employed in some scenarios when it comes to sensitive information, as NotAracham stated with the db141 outages. While that may have not been the case here, the conversations in question that were done in private channels and served as preliminary ideas. It was not as if the solution that came out of the discussion was to appoint 3 new group contacts without community input. The decision was made to ask for community input. The public has the opportunity to voice their opinions here, now. Just because conversations about Group Contacts were made in private channels does not mean that they were bad. Plenty of conversations are had privately for varying reasons. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I respectfully would disagree that the use of such a channel during the data recovery incident was useful. In my view (and SREs and the Boards), it contributed to a fragmentation of discussion and ultimately lead to the community being poorly informed and at times - misinformed about the situation. This was picked up by SRE and it was agreed that said channel should not be used in the future for such discussions. Therefore, I would argue the justification for the channels existence is moot if that's the primary example. John (talk) 23:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you proposing to delete/archive the channel? BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not explicitly making such a proposal - I'm merely pointing out that public discussions should be public and private discussions private - to channel appears to be used in a way to hide the public discussions at times and publicise the private discussions that should be private. I imagine if we audit the channel, a lot of discussions would either be acceptable to be public or would be deemed private and as such should not be in such a 'public' channel. John (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I imagine a review of conversations can be undertaken then. I would ask though for you to reconsider your oppose of MacFan4000. Other than that mishap, they've been an exemplary member in the Miraheze community and are trusted. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:47, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

ManageWiki help
How do I rename a permission group? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Edit your MediaWiki:Group- and MediaWiki:Group- -member pages. For example, if I wanted to rename the administrator group to "moderator", I'd edit MediaWiki:Group-sysop and MediaWiki:Group-sysop-member. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:16, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, how do I also change the internal name? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:41, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You'd have to delete the group and then make a new one with a new internal name. I wouldn't suggest you delete the administrators, bureaucrat, or autoconfirmed groups though as deleting those breaks ManageWiki and your wiki in general. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Could a rename option be added as a feature? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:07, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You can file a Phabricator task requesting it and we'll hopefully add it eventually. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 05:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Unrelated, but how does deleting autoconfirmed break MediaWiki? I already did that and nothing bad has happened. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:48, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * https://landar.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=5222 Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * All your users will now be subjected to the anti-spam global filters because the autoconfirmed group is the one which exempted them from that. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 13:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter. Only approved users can edit, and that group all ready has autoconfirmed permissions. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 20:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

sibebar help ?
Can someone help me modify sidebar on this wiki? https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sidebar

Marieke Timelab (talk) 15:50, 14 March 2023 (UTC)


 * also interested in this! ZBlace (talk) 15:51, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear on what your specific question/challenge is you want to solve. Here's MediaWiki's documentation on how to customize the sidebar, if you have a more specific question we're happy to help...
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 17:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If you can see the source of Sidebar page *https://timelab.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sidebar&action=edit, then you can also see it is not interpreted/used in Sidebar menu at all, as if there is override with defaults..is that not problematic? --18:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, it appears that there was a bad cached version of the page. I used the More >> Purge action to force a re-render and your sidebar changes now show up. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 19:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham thank you!
 * @Marieke Timelab any other help needed? ZBlace (talk) 19:56, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham are you sure it was cache issue? I tried purging it also but now did not get newest version :-(
 * -- ZBlace (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Bar contents are appearing, there are just issues with the source code as entered today. See attached screenshot, one of the issues is that they're trying to use inline links for partial text with  and , while MediaWiki only supports exact_pagename|text_to_display without brackets for the sidebar, to my understanding.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 18:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I added code for you and @Marieke Timelab to test out for the sidebar, you can find it on:
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Sidebar
 * It worked flawlessly on my personal instance, hope it helps! Cheers, --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 21:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @NotAracham thank you...
 * Strange that sidebar would not support other type of links.
 * -- ZBlace (talk) 14:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Example Shot Of Sidebar.png


 * navigation
 * Commoning Art Practice
 * Reshaping Production
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/Knotfactory|Knotfactory
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/Knotplex|Knotplex
 * https://timelab.miraheze.org/wiki/Knotpot|Knotpot

Using Meta as a comparison
 * navigation
 * mainpage|mainpage-description
 * recentchanges-url|recentchanges
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 * Special:RequestWiki|miraheze-requestwiki
 * Special:RequestImportDump|requestimportdump
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MacFan4000's request for IRC Group Contact
Basically for the same reasons as in the above to requests. At least 2 or 3 new GCs would be a good idea so that we have active and available people who can deal with GC related requests. I am currently a GC for a different project, thus I am familiar with the policies and procedures, and am also already in the private GC IRC channel (run by Libera staff). I am reasonably active on IRC and can often be reached with a ping. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 13:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Questions for candidate

 * 1) Below in the oppose section you said, "A private discussion between Miraheze staff members", do you feel private discussions should be a preliminary aspect of starting community discussions like this? It's interesting that 3 requests have come at once following a discussion that is not public and involving 2 groups you're labelling as staff when neither are Board appointed? Miraheze has had a long history of having a closed 'old boys' style club where decisions were made in private involving groups that either a) shouldn't be discussing community affecting things privately (stewards) or b) shouldn't be having a major influence on community aspects by definition (SRE). I find it slightly concerning that this line of proposals is coming out of re-igniting such a private and exclusive club. John (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * We simply were talking about and agreeing on the fact that we really need to have another GC that has more availability. I want to make it clear that I did not start the conversation, though I did participate in it. Certainly it may have been a good idea for the discussion to have been held publicly.
 * So my point is more around why does such a channel where a community role and non community role co-exist that is utilised seemingly in such a way that public discussions can be usurped into a private environment to exclude the community from engaging in discussions/decisions initially that revolve around them? John (talk) 22:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Honestly, one could argue that these requests would serve as a public discussion, and if people agree with the issue they can support the request and if they don't they can oppose it. The private discussion ultimately lead to public discussion through these posts. I see no reason that such a private channel could stay in existence so long as more of these discussions are held publicly and no final decision is reached in the private channel. In this case the only "decisions" that took place were me and UO individually deciding to post these requests. I will also mention that I wasn't even part of this channel until yesterday. Also re: your statement about the use of the word staff, I wasn't aware that there was any official definition? I used the term loosely. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So you see no reason a private channel can't exist to have discussions that should be public but aren't because people who are 'lucky' to be in the channel choose to have such discussions? John (talk) 22:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I never said that. This was more to get support from other people before starting a public discussion. If nobody had agreed that the issue was valid i would not have been pursued any further. For community matter I would always ultimately want public input on the matter, and we are getting it through these requests. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You say that's not the case, but then immediately go to say if this 'private channel' had not agreed it was a problem, you wouldn't have consulted the community - who are the ones who should decide if there is a problem in the first place. Or would you then gone into a public channel to start a discussion over what you had discussed in the private channel that no one agreed with you on? John (talk) 22:48, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Had I been the one starting the conversation, I would have done so publicly. Ether way I probably would have eventually some day posted this request. I had been thinking about it from time to time, but I don't often start discussions, nor do I very often participate in them. I also have no knowledge of any of the previous ones that took place in this channel. In this case requesting a role is a personal decision, and it was helpful to hear opinions before deciding to request the position. If I had decided I wanted even more opinions, I would have talked to more people. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 23:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) What steps would you take to ensure the community remains uninfluenced by such private and closed venues where the community can not suitably or appropriately assess need, necessity or content of such non-sensitive discussions? John (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, I did not start the conservation. I think this would be a better question for to answer. Maybe in the future we hold discussions like this publicly. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I asked explicitly what you would do. John (talk) 22:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I would make sure that if I start a discussion like this I do it publicly unless there is some reason it absolutely has to be private. This one probably could have been public. If somebody does start one of these discussions in private we can make sure not to come to a final decision until public discussion has taken place.

Support

 * 1)  Has both a good reason to request this right and it's already an IRC regular. OrangeStar (talk) 16:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  Diversification with trusted users that are also IRC regulars is wise.  MacFan4000 has proven to be both. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 16:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1)  Why does everyone want this right all of sudden? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 10:42, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just 3 people have requested this. I guess originally it was because there was only one group contact, now it's because there are no group contacts. OrangeStar (talk) 15:50, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The original reason was because as of late, the only GC, John has not been on IRC much as of late, and thus it would be good to have somebody who is active and available. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 19:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  I'm not familiar enough with MacFan4000 to vote on this one, so abstain. |  -- FrozenPlum  (Talk / Email) 04:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Apart from being rather inactive on IRC compared to CosmicAlpha and Reception123, I also find them to be much more problematic both with being more personal and ruder. Also this person used op permissions for personal issues once (disclaimer: I was the target; but it was still a personal issue). Plus, if CosmicAlpha and Reception123's requests pass, there will be no need for FOUR group contacts on such a small project. Please stop this "trend". Naleksuh (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not at all inactive. I am usually available if you ping me. It is frankly disappointing that we are unable to move past previous mistakes which can be learned from. I will note that I made this request following an internal discussion. I will also clarify for other voters that I did not misuse permissions. I was a channel moderator at the time, (and still am). I decided that because of what was happening, a ban was needed. Later another moderator disagreed with the ban and removed. Another moderator had told me at the time of the ban, that they were fully ok with it. It also was not at all for personal reasons. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 17:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Internal to what? There's currently only one group contact. Naleksuh (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * A private discussion between Miraheze staff members (SRE, stewards etc). MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 17:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That's another reason then. I would like to keep groups seperate and have them simply do what they are meant for; not draw some sort of "line" or have a private club. This is actually one of the reasons why SRE are no longer called sysadmins and a lot of their responsibilities were broken up into elsewhere. If you consider these past actions mistakes that you have learned from, I guess that's better than nothing, but there is certainly not a need for four group contacts, especially picked from people who already do far too many other things Naleksuh (talk) 17:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1)  Similar lines above, permissions have previously been used to be push a personal opinion/side of an argument rather than acting in a neutral capacity. Response to the question I posted as well does not provide me much confidence that they'll act in the community interest as they accepted a private channel to exclude the community from initial discussions is okay where the membership of the channel is decided by those not appointed to manage such a channel bit rather by virtue of their roles in either community or non community environments. John (talk) 22:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That was a single incident. I have learned from that, and now would not make a such a ban without first consulting other moderators unless nobody else was around and it was extremely obvious that a ban was needed. I will restate though that it was not at all for personal reasons, from what I can recall, conduct was getting out of hand and discussions not directly involving me were getting heated. Once again it was not my decision to hold this conversation privately. I would always act in community interest.
 * Respectfully, I find this to be a misread of today's situation. While I believe I understand your opposition to the existence of private channels more generally, private channels do have a role in coordinating relevant sensitive volunteer actions - the use of one such channel was critical in preventing widespread panic during the November/December outages as internal volunteer discussions about recovery were underway.
 * Such a chat taking place in general channels during the incident would have been rife with interruptions, disrupted other necessary support conversations, and been prone to misinterpretations that would have further slowed progress/damaged trust in the Miraheze platform, though admittedly communications weren't perfect in spite of that use.
 * MacFan's 'acceptance' of the channel in question was unrelated to this specific request for GC, but was instead prompted by UO rectifying a long-term disconnect in bridging similar Discord and IRC channels that serve the same legitimate coordination purposes.
 * I do agree that brief discussion about "Hey, there's a need for more GCs, let's put this to the community to decide" probably should have taken place in general instead of a private channel, but the CN was viewed as the correct public forum to broach this for public debate.
 * --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 23:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would agree with NotAracham on this front. The use of private channels are employed in some scenarios when it comes to sensitive information, as NotAracham stated with the db141 outages. While that may have not been the case here, the conversations in question that were done in private channels and served as preliminary ideas. It was not as if the solution that came out of the discussion was to appoint 3 new group contacts without community input. The decision was made to ask for community input. The public has the opportunity to voice their opinions here, now. Just because conversations about Group Contacts were made in private channels does not mean that they were bad. Plenty of conversations are had privately for varying reasons. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I respectfully would disagree that the use of such a channel during the data recovery incident was useful. In my view (and SREs and the Boards), it contributed to a fragmentation of discussion and ultimately lead to the community being poorly informed and at times - misinformed about the situation. This was picked up by SRE and it was agreed that said channel should not be used in the future for such discussions. Therefore, I would argue the justification for the channels existence is moot if that's the primary example. John (talk) 23:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you proposing to delete/archive the channel? BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not explicitly making such a proposal - I'm merely pointing out that public discussions should be public and private discussions private - to channel appears to be used in a way to hide the public discussions at times and publicise the private discussions that should be private. I imagine if we audit the channel, a lot of discussions would either be acceptable to be public or would be deemed private and as such should not be in such a 'public' channel. John (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I imagine a review of conversations can be undertaken then. I would ask though for you to reconsider your oppose of MacFan4000. Other than that mishap, they've been an exemplary member in the Miraheze community and are trusted. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 23:47, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

ManageWiki help
How do I rename a permission group? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Edit your MediaWiki:Group- and MediaWiki:Group- -member pages. For example, if I wanted to rename the administrator group to "moderator", I'd edit MediaWiki:Group-sysop and MediaWiki:Group-sysop-member. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:16, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, how do I also change the internal name? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 04:41, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You'd have to delete the group and then make a new one with a new internal name. I wouldn't suggest you delete the administrators, bureaucrat, or autoconfirmed groups though as deleting those breaks ManageWiki and your wiki in general. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 04:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Could a rename option be added as a feature? Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:07, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You can file a Phabricator task requesting it and we'll hopefully add it eventually. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 05:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Unrelated, but how does deleting autoconfirmed break MediaWiki? I already did that and nothing bad has happened. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:48, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * https://landar.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=5222 Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 05:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * All your users will now be subjected to the anti-spam global filters because the autoconfirmed group is the one which exempted them from that. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 13:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter. Only approved users can edit, and that group all ready has autoconfirmed permissions. Bbbtest (talk | contribs | e-mail) 20:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)