Requests for Comment/Harassment

The following RfC is based on the recent Username Policy closures advice to refine our definition of certain terms. Please consider the appropriateness of any examples used to show your ideas. This discussion will be carefully monitored.
 * Opened: ~ RhinosF1 - (chat)· acc· c -  21:06, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

How do you define offensive and/or insulting?

 * If someone was attacking another user due to bias or if someone posts content deemed by the community as inappropriate. Sapphire Williams  (talk page • contributions) 04:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * "Offence" or "insult" are completely subjective concepts and therefore can't be defined objectively. A specific community can define a set of behaviors that constitute offence (for example, racial slurs) but there's no rule that can work on all of Miraheze, except the rule of law.-Wedhro (talk) 13:07, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I would define them as something that makes a person upset and that person deems it inappropriate. Thank u, next, Eiji (talk) 16:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd say anything made for the sole purpose of upsetting a group for offensive, and something made to upset a specific person for insulting. That being said, a holistic solution is probably needed for this since there's so many different ways it could be interpreted and different subcultures will have different 'boiling points' for lack of a better term. InfiniteMausoleum 05:49, October 18, 2019 (UTC)

What would you class as trolling?

 * When someone becomes disruptive, either to a particular user or to the community as a whole, for the purposes of amusement to the troll. Sapphire Williams  (talk page • contributions) 04:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * What's the difference between a troll and someone who is provocative for the sake of discussion? Basic trolls (people who just contribute with insults) are easy to detect but skilled ones are hard to tell from genuine free thinkers or determined debaters. Maybe only a specific community can define what's a troll and what's not, but the risk is gatekeeping. --Wedhro (talk) 13:13, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * If I insult or offend you, you tell me that I've done so, and I stop, that's being provocative for the sake of discussion. If I insult or offend you, you tell me that I've done so, and I continue, that's trolling (and rudeness). IMHO. --aaaaRobkelk (talk) 13:55, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That would give anyone the power to call me a troll just because they say so. That's easily abusable and we've seen it in action in pretty much every social network.--Wedhro (talk) 17:47, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * When a person is causing disruption on a website just for their own amusement. Thank u, next, Eiji (talk) 16:15, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

When does something become harassment?

 * Bullying, stalking, personally attacking someone, or making unsolicited favors. Sapphire Williams  (talk page • contributions) 04:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Continuous personal attacks constitute harrasment better in such regard tbh Rajavlitra (talk) 06:35, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * When the supposedly harassed person says so, which is the reason why it's hard to tell harassers from people who are merely joking or being a little harsh in expressing their opinion. Maybe the only way to tell is when the person goes on after being warned.--Wedhro (talk) 13:18, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * "When the supposedly harassed person says so" leads to simple disagreements of opinion being termed harassment by one or both of the disagreeing parties. (Taken to an illogical extreme: "The sky is blue." "No, it's gray because of all the clouds." "It's blue! You're harassing me!") Moderators and Stewards have more important things to do than investigate shouting matches. --Robkelk (talk) 13:50, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That's why it's not an issue rules can solve. I'd say: leave it to local admins.--Wedhro (talk) 22:48, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * When somebody is intentionally targeting somebody, dehumanizing them, bullying them, etc. It can involve sending threatening posts, making posts involving the person saying bad stuff about the person being harassed, etc. Thank u, next, Eiji (talk) 16:17, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Getting uncomfortably personal with the opposing party, like attacking their personal beliefs, creed, or friends/family. I don't deem jokes, disagreements, or harsh criticism to be harassment. But the most important aspect (to me at least) that crosses into the realms of harassment is persistence. If you constantly attack someone on a regular basis for no other reason than just being an ass, then it's harassment. That's what I think harassment is anyway. Cheers! ThunderKat (talk) 22:33, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Any of the above often elicits the same, from the person "harassed." Keep ragging on me and I will gradually move from trying to reason with you, to dishing it right back at you.  In cases of interpersonal hostility, do we really want to task the Code-of-Conduct cpmmittee with figuring out who started it?  Again, I oppose this effort to solve disagreeable behavior by Rulebook.   15:41 17-Oct-2019
 * We have this term ハラスメント・ハラスメント in Japan, meaning every action can be regarded as harassment which can lead to a new harassment by abusing the word "harassment." The word can be easily abused by those who claim to be "harassed" because it's subjective. Therefore, what matters is not the definition, but the context and the culture of each community/case has.-- 09:02, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

What do you class as discrimination?

 * When somebody is judged only because of what they believe in, how they look, their sex, etc. Examknow ● talk ● contribs 21:45, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * A "protected characteristics" thing might be good as a less vague way to define this (especially in regard to beliefs) SpookyBoy (talk) 17:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * When someone is attacked, patronized or denied rights based on race, religion, sex, etc. Sapphire Williams  (talk page • contributions) 04:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * When a person has not the same rights as his/her peers, no matter his/her behavior. It's the strictest definition.--Wedhro (talk) 13:23, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * When a person is intentionally setting one apart just because of their race, ethnecity, etc. Thank u, next, Eiji (talk) 16:18, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * When a person is deprived of chances to take actions in the community, or unfairly suppressed due to his/her characteristics (race, nation, language, gender, religion, political belief, sexual identity, illness/disorder, family, past crime records, relationships with those who tend to be discriminated, ... literally any features that form our diversity). Positive attacks are, of course, part of discrimination, but negative attacks (such as ignoring the minorities) can be another part of discrimination (which this discussion itself potentially faces due to the language barrier).-- 09:17, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

What is a personal attack?
When an editor is judged based on something about themselves, not the edits themselves. Talk about the changes editors have made, not the editor. Examknow ● talk ● contribs 21:47, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed.--Wedhro (talk) 13:24, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * When someone targets a user, either to flame or vandalize their content, for example. Sapphire Williams  (talk page • contributions) 04:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Targeting a person and making abusive remarks towards them. Thank u, next, Eiji (talk) 16:19, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Code of Conduct

 * The Miraheze community advises the Code of Conduct/Commission to review their internal protocols on dealing with the above issues and requests the Code of Conduct is appropriately modified to incorporate the result of this discussion.

Support

 * 1) Whatever the community chooses should be fully respected by policy on all levels.  ~ RhinosF1 - (chat)· acc· c -  21:11, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  per RhinosF1 Zppix (Meta &#124; CVT Member &#124; talk to me) 21:13, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * 3)   Sapphire Williams  (talk page • contributions) 04:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * 4)  Thank u, next, Eiji (talk) 16:19, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * 5)  --「ペーパークリップ？！」PaperClip I am also on TCRF 17:02, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * 6)  – Aνδρέας  talk&#124;contributions 12:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * 7)  I see no reason why not. --Examknow ● talk ● contribs 21:01, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Miraheze has always respected majority vote but we should not be a "democracy" in the sense of the majority dictating all things, including free speech.  Members who fancy themselves legislators should understand that the rulebook cannot codify everything.  Otherwise you will have the orthodoxy and lack of due process currently in play in American universities, and the three-year search for technical violations with which to remove the President.  Members are trying to legislate to make a valiant statement against social division. To make an example of Sapphire Williams' comments in the previous sections:
 * 2) *"Attacking due to bias" is an invitation to use someone's words to guess how he really feels about other people. The whole concept of "homophobia" is an invitation to use opposition to a political agenda as proof that a person is acting from hate or fear.
 * 3) *"Discrimination" (pre-judgement in the face of incomplete information) is something that humans do. Discrimination when one does have, or could have, complete information, is regrettable but not an offense.  I am more likely to date someone of my own culture, to avoid clashes of culture and values.
 * 4) *"Making unsolicited favors" suggests the University culture, where asking a woman on a date or complimenting her appearance could be sexual harassment.
 * 5) *I endorse making comments about an edit and not about an editor, but failure to meet this standard should not go to a disciplinary committee. We will soon be awash in paperwork!
 * 6) *And people who disagree with this comment might well "deem it inappropriate." Should it be struck down?  Should I be banned?   12:13 16-Oct-2019
 * 7)   Miraheze is not contemporary Fandom. I agree with Spike on some points. The part about "Discrimination" being something that humans do is true indeed. It can be done for just reasons as well as out of malice. Failure to meet the standard of refraining to make non-positive comments about the editor does hold water, but a disciplinary committee should not have sole power over it. I disagree to a point on Spike's views on the concept of homophobia being just an an invitation. Indeed, a rulebook cannot codify every single thing. User:SpeccySte
 * 8) Miraheze as a whole is a diverse community with multinational/multilingual cultures co-existing. Many of our wikis are non-English communities, with users who cannot/do not use English. Because of this, cultural differences should always be considered, and I don't think a rulebook discussed by only those who can use English can do that. I say CoCC cases should be handled on a case-by-case basis considering the context behind each case (most of which would probably be a local case among users/wikis). Otherwise, the very discussion can form a good example of "discrimination" based on users' languages.-- 08:52, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

General Comments
It's to refine it based on the request of when the Username Policy RfC was created. ~ RhinosF1 - (chat)· acc· c - 05:45, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Drafted on Staff wiki. ~ RhinosF1 - (chat)· acc· c -  21:06, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I fail to see the point of this RFC when it is defined at CoC. &mdash; revi  05:42, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Example
It might shed light if voters considered a case this year on Wikipedia that led to administrative block with what some say was non-transparency, and to resignations. I believe the underlying events were: (1) User declares his set of desired pronouns; (2) Admin refuses to respect User's wishes, perhaps on the basis that they are at odds with what Admin views as reality. Is this a political disagreement? or flagrant incivility voters here would send to Code-of-Conduct arbitration? 01:52 17-Oct-2019
 * "You can ban me later": I might be more willing to respond to this if you could stop trying so hard to vice signal, but lets not pretend there has never been an overlap between discrimination and politics. SpookyBoy (talk) 17:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)