Stewards' noticeboard/Archive 37

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Raidarr@metawiki

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
 * is warned against making negative comments on other users regardless of the accuracy of those statements. Consider finding a more tact manner of stating what needs to be said, and indeed, whether or not it is something that needs to be said at all. There is not, in my opinion, enough of a long-standing case (nor further continuing behavior) for revocation or further sanctions. -- Void  Whispers 18:55, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah. Do I need to say anything? Imagine a world in which all volunteers got along and had no issues. This doesn't happen. Now imagine issues being resolved normally, participants assuming good faith, and not intentionally looking for ways to go after other users. Either by hounding them or just by saying things in their head. This doesn't happen either.

There is no shortage of problems on Miraheze of users looking through my edits and saying hurtful things outside of the VCP. But the worst offender, and contemporary offender is here right now and one who I CANNOT escape from.

Some example:
 * https://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=Stewards%27_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=327818&diffmode=source
 * https://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Raidarr&diff=324147&oldid=323904
 * https://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_Stewardship&diff=prev&oldid=327650&diffmode=source
 * Raidarr's replies to this thread

I have tried simply ignoring them, but they keep doing it. All while going on about how I have not been "held accountable" for my alleged VCP violations even though in actuality I am subject to a nonstop stream of complaints every single day, while no-one even thinks about them. So, since we have a giant thread full of things I have done (and even things I haven't done, that people just came up with), let's discuss someone else next. Even DeeM28 themself admits that these VCP violations are the result of other VCP violations, and there may be multiple people involved. Naleksuh (talk) 21:47, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * If you don't want to be offended because I'm giving you a honest pushback for what you do to others then maybe don't do it, but we both know you're not going to do that so good luck on this request. Anyone uncertain is free to review my history and Nale's history respectively. Various links to start are available in the preceding section. --Raidarr (talk) 21:56, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * then maybe don't do it, but we both know you're not going to do that Another example. How can the project possibly operate smoothly when they have been told by others what they will do (and often a negative or untrue thing, not a prediction just some personal attack). This is one of the things that needs to stop and some of the VCP issues that led to this request. Naleksuh (talk) 22:00, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I would be happy to be proven wrong and discuss when you set down the indignant offense stick and start to reply to what has actually been said instead of trying to escape accountability. --Raidarr (talk) 22:03, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This is ridiculous. This request is completely unnecessary. The reasoning provided does not warrant removal of rights. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 22:18, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * First, this is a request to stewards, not a vote, second, why doesn't it? Does the VCP not apply to Raidarr? Naleksuh (talk) 22:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * +1 to that. OrangeStar (talk) 16:12, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * How unfortunate, yet another example of deflection. I will admit that this is why Stewards have enabled you and have not dealt with you as we should have in a proper manner. We simply don't have the time or energy to undergo your campaigns of deflection where you turn a topic against someone and we know if we try to raise this issue up with you, you will simply try to turn the table against us. All volunteers have disputes with each other, I won't deny that I've clashed with a few fellow community members but very rarely will these disputes bubble up to the surface and cause the magnitude of drama that occurs with disputes relating to you. Every single time someone tries to point something out, you deflect or change the topic. It makes trying to debate something basically impossible and makes it so that we cannot effectively resolve any problems with you. The way you argue things too doesn't help. You dissect everything very meticulously and try to change topics against one which tires out the other party who eventually gives up. This is a recurring pattern on IRC which any regular of Discord or IRC will be able to attest to and the source of countless drama on these mediums. No one holds a grudge against you, you're a very brilliant person in fact and I was told very, very good things about you by Dmehus and other volunteers when I first started volunteering here and I still believe them, but your conduct and the way you argue things make it impossible to volunteer in this project and makes the environment extremely hostile. This is yet another example of trying to deflect the attention from you to Raidarr. Raidarr isn't a saint, his comment to you was indeed blunt and sugarcoating it would've been best but in my view, his comments weren't a personal attack (blunt, perhaps) but instead a direct symptom of what has caused so much reason drama as of late, your behavior, which has been unchecked for far too long and enabled by Stewards, past and present, who have basically given you a free pass and the liberty to trample over the Code of Conduct simply because they do not have the energy or time to effectively deal with your game of semantics and wikilawyering. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 22:44, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I would add that there are no rights here to be revoked by Stewards, so this entire thread is pointless even on the highly unlikely chance that someone even gives it a moment's thought. Raidarr is autopatrolled on Meta, that's it. I don't really see any point in removing that. If you are asking for his global sysop permissions to be revoked, that cannot be done by Stewards except in emergency cases. That would require a community discussion. As such, there's really nothing to do here. Not sure why this was created. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 00:23, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * this entire thread is pointless even on the highly unlikely chance that someone even gives it a moment's thought Wow, if I said this you would freak out. But I guess I know by now that policies just only apply to some people. Naleksuh (talk) 00:31, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I'm just pointing out the fact that people aren't likely to take it seriously. I haven't made personal attacks against you, I haven't insulted you. I've pointed out a fact about the current situation. There are no VCP violations here. Additionally, as I've said, there are no rights for you to request be revoked. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 00:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Naleksuh, I don't mean to be rude, but that responded to almost none of what you're replying to. Collei  ( talk ) ( contribs ) 07:34, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

To build on BrandonWm's comment, this request would technically be moot, since locally Raider holds only autopatrolled, which is up to meta sysops and not stewards. Globally they hold Global Sysop, but stewards can only revoke in an emergency which this is not. (a vote of no confidence is required) MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 00:45, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I think it's fair to question what this request is actually for. Outside of emergencies, Stewards aren't allowed to remove Global Sysops without a community vote. It would be useful for you to indicate what you are actually requesting that Stewards do. I would also argue that the fact that quite a few users supported Raidarr's request for Steward after your oppose likely indicates that they don't agree with your assessment of the matter as surely users wouldn't support someone for Steward if they thought that they were violating global policies. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 06:07, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed, as you've noted, the Global Sysops emergency revocation clause does specifically only allow Stewards to revoke the permission in the absence of community consensus, provided they bring forward that community discussion, for which the user must pass, for blatant misuse of the Global Sysop's toolset (for example, a number of global locks or local blocks in a short span of time for which there was no valid reason). However, we do also have the Volunteer Conduct Policy, which provides for enforcement by Stewards, together with, in the case of Meta Wiki only, local Meta Wiki bureaucrats and administrators, as appropriate. Both Global Sysops and Volunteer Conduct Policy are global policies, and if this request for revocation is being made under the VCP rather than the GS policy, then procedurally, it may well be in scope (though not necessarily valid). Arguably, VCP is a supra-policy in that it is a broader overarching policy, similar to the Terms of Use, and would thus override more narrow GS policies, but that does not necessarily mean that it should override more narrow global policies, of course. For me, the aggrieved pattern of conduct would have to be wide-ranging, cross-wiki, and not able to be resolved through potential conduct counter-measures implemented locally on one wiki. Of course, Meta Wiki is a special wiki in that counter-measures implemented locally may prevent an advanced permissioned user from carrying out their global duties, hence why it's tricky to simply devolve that authority to Meta bureaucrats and administrators. The idea of a distinction between supra-global policies and ordinary global policies is one which merits further discussion and one which I would be interested in collaborating with others to draft, particularly because if there is not a distinction between supra- and ordinary global policies, then we potentially have a situation where the global role-specific policies come into conflict with the Volunteer Conduct Policy, Global Conduct Policy, and related pan-Miraheze global policies.
 * In any case, though, all of this is not actionable by Stewards or Meta bureaucrats, as the first linked diff is just Naleksuh complaining about a thread Raidarr started about him and the second two are just Raidarr explaining his view on why and how he views Naleksuh's interactions with other users are negative and continuous. Dmehus (talk) 17:35, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't use Meta much but I have had interactions with Raidarr and it was good. I have not seen anything bad from him so I don't understand where you are going with this one. Charlie Fiddlesticks (talk) 19:57, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Same as others. I've replied to Nale on these type of things several time before. Collei (talk) 04:58, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Also the same as the others, at some point a return to reason has to occur here, stepping away from emotions and ego, and users stop being attacked and having things reframed to be the reverse. Raidarr is a sensible, reasonable person, I see no reason to remove them. Enough if enough now, please. | -- FrozenPlum   06:09, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * First, for at least the 10th time the stewards noticeboard is not a polling ground. This thread is not any form of vote and templates and symbols have no meaning. Were you just using them because other people were, or is there a different reason?
 * Second, I think this thread is the return to reason, so far there has been an issue with misinformation and intentionally looking past VCP violations. A good example is how you said that you "see no reason" even though several reasons were provided. Are you going to address those, or just say you see no reason without looking at the reasons? Naleksuh (talk) 06:16, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * So it's my turn to be targeted I guess? Can you point me to the rule against using the poll template here? Otherwise, please don't turn your sights on me for disagreeing with you. The disrespectful and condescending approach noticed in most communications (the comment above, going after me, right after I voiced neutral observation of your behavior, being a good example). Behavior such as this is what makes it difficult to take the things said or presented, at face value, frankly. When repeatedly loaded, nitpicking/pedantic, or highly argumentative views are presented, that's the impression left with people. That tends to degrade how seriously other issues presented are viewed. That's not us doing that, unfortunately, that's you. As for engaging in an argument about it, I think you get something out of this, so I won't engage that. I used to be that way a tiny bit too, the great thing is, these are all things that can be worked on and improved, which is awesome! It takes a while to form new habits, and looking closely at ourselves is hard, but it was highly worth it for me. Some practice in gratitude, as well as in communication, social, and emotional intelligence I found to also be super helpful for this--one of the best things I ever did for myself. Anyway, best of luck in future Naleksuh! :) | -- FrozenPlum   10:28, 12 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Milky Way Idle

 * ✅ --Raidarr (talk) 22:03, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Web Serial Collection

 * ✅ Agent Isai  Talk to me! 03:48, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Agent Isai, looks like this deletion didn't complete successfully... --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 16:31, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Agent Isai, I can still access the wiki. You may want to try deleting it again. Globe - (Talk • Contributions • CA) 12:11, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure what happened here, but ✅. --Raidarr (talk) 16:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Loathsome Characters Wiki
I don't think the site this guy is linking on his blog post is allowed...

In this thread, he links a site that is infamous for doxxing and harassment of other users and it has illegal content.

https://loathsomecharacters.miraheze.org/wiki/Blog:Somebody_ban_this_bitch#end

Additionally, this blog post looks a bit toxic if you ask me. BlastoiseTheWikiEditor (talk) 17:56, 3 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Site is encyclopedia dramatica, LOL. So that's still a thing. OrangeStar (talk) 18:00, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately yes it still exists, why hasn't CloudFlare (Who has taken down KiwiFarms, who also hosts the web domain for Encyclopedia Dramatica) taken the site down yet? BlastoiseTheWikiEditor (talk) 18:07, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The blog post has been deleted. Tali64³ (talk) 18:02, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Not the first blog of his I had to delete for being an unhinged toxic mess. He has been warned for global conduct violations following a second blog he posted after Tali cleaned up the first. --Raidarr (talk) 18:15, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Real Life Villains Wiki
What happened to this wiki? It appears to have been deleted. Money12123 (contribs | CentralAuth) 00:02, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The wiki was closed by a Steward for Content Policy violations (log action). Tali64³ (talk) 00:54, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * But it still has potential to be better though. Money12123 (contribs | CentralAuth) 01:28, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The administration of the wiki was given 60 days to resolve the issues, but well over 90% of sampled pages still had content policy issues at time of closure.
 * Chances to improve have been used up, the wiki will not be returning. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 03:13, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * You are very late to the conversation, Money. If you want to see a wiki of this nature avoid closure, contribute to Knowledge is Power - it's the spitting image of RLV and I'm not sure why it was approved, but it is currently in a grace period to fix itself up before I formally enter to strike it for the same reasons as RLV. --Raidarr (talk) 13:23, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I still have a couple of issues though:

Money12123 (contribs | CentralAuth) 20:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) The administration are only one group of users who weren't able to fix things. I could improve it better, and there might be others out there.
 * 2) There is still history lost, so creating new wikis is still a problem.


 * The wiki is long gone now, so I'd advise contributing to the Knowledge is Power wiki to potentially save that one from being deleted. Tali64³ (talk) 20:33, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Regardless of whether you could do better, the wiki won't be reopened at this point. Conversation won't be productive or reverse this situation, please find a different project as suggested. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 20:48, 1 May 2023 (UTC)