Requests for Comment/Changes to the Dormancy Policy

The Dormancy Policy has been around since the beginning of 2016, and since then things have changed in the way that we implement it, so therefore we need to update the policy accordingly. You may vote for multiple proposals (since they are not necessarily mutually exclusive).

Proposal 1

 * The current time periods for inactivity, closure and deletion remain the same as currently, with the only change being to the wording of the policy, as these things are now done automatically and not by "global staff".

a) Support

 * 1)  I am perfectly happy with the way these times are at the moment. They are lenient and allow for prolonged periods of inactivity. This has so far prevented my wiki (and others) from getting deleted before I got a bout of energy and activity again. -- Fritigern (talk) 21:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  I have the LWD Foundation, and some of my wikis are inactive for almost a month, but per the comment above, it is also fair. LegoMaster (talk - contribs - Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 01:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 3)  Wikis with no contributions / bureaucrats may still be read and of use Figurehigh (talk) 08:14, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 4)  &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 5)  Seems fair for me. Southparkfan (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

d) Comments
A global comment up front: These proposals are fine for getting a "sense of the community," but they contemplate making edits to a Miraheze policy document, and seeing the actual edits would forestall complaints along the lines of, "This isn't what we voted for!" The following proposal suggests that policy changes will occur "after the closure of this RfC", suggesting that there is no follow-on vote on the wording. The current proposal especially is problematic: We are asked to endorse mere "change[s] to the wording of the policy" without seeing what the changes are. 19:48 3-May-2019 What is the current policy? I get so busy at work that I am unable to make edits to my wiki for 4 months straight, so I'm against having the wiki expire or be adopted after just 60 days of inactivity. Bulrush (talk) 12:10, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The changes of the wording policy are merely to account for minor changes due to the fact that some parts of the DP are now handled by a script instead of by system administrators manually. Reception123 (talk) ('C' ) 04:47, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 2

 * The "Wikis with no contributions" clause of the policy is removed from the Dormancy Policy and will no longer be applicable after the closure of this RfC. (This clause has not been used so far)

a) Support

 * A wiki with 0 contributions is not "dormant" but "unbegun". Using wmftools suggests that a large number of requests for wikis are abandoned soon after, by newbies who didn't understand the magnitude of work involved in making it look serious.  My support assumes there is some way to clear these away; it doesn't have to be in the Dormancy Policy.   19:51 3-May-2019
 * Please note that without the Dormancy Policy, there is no way that we can clear wikis away, this was the only way that allowed us to do so. Reception123 (talk) ('C' ) 04:53, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * 1)  As it is indicated above, has not been used. Reception123  (talk) ('C' ) 17:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  6 months total for a regular deletion seem fine enough to handle hypothetical 0 contribs cases since those wouldn't really waste much resources.--Wedhro (talk) 19:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 3)  It would seem to me that removing the text from the dormancy policy will simplify the policy. Simpler is best IMHO. --Fritigern (talk) 21:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 4)  Per the comment above. LegoMaster (talk - contribs - Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 01:45, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

b) Oppose

 * 1) Flip to Oppose.  If indeed this is the only policy authorizing deletion of dead-end wikis that were never developed, I would have it remain in the document.  If stewards want to keep them to pad the count, I can't stop them, but hundreds of wikis with no content at all diffuse people's attention even if they don't waste time/money/megabytes.   13:37 4-May-2019
 * 2)  I'd rather have this bit in there just in case of unforeseen circumstances. It also clearly differentiates wikis that have never been edited from wikis with substantial edits which should have different rules imo. &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:27, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 3)  I mean, if it's empty and no one is really doing anything about it, then why keep it up?  Sapphire Williams  (talk page • contributions) 13:36, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

c) Abstain

 * 1)  Wouldn't mind if this clause was removed, however keeping the clause is also fine with me. Southparkfan (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 1

 * The rules for exemptions remain the same as they are

a) Support

 * 1)  If they are changed then some events (e.g. elections, Olympics, etc.) will have to request more regularly than their period of activity. Equally wikis that will never go out of date and have large traffic numbers but low edit counts (e.g. a hypertext variant of the D&D 3e SRD) will end up being closed soon after creation. ~ El Komodos Drago (talk to me) 18:16, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * While you do make a good point, the renewal process will be very simple, and all that has to be done is the bureaucrat answers an email from sysadmins saying "I would like to renew". So even if the wiki is only used rarely, I'm sure one of the bureaucrats would be able to answer an email. Reception123 (talk) ('C' ) 10:00, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that exemptions existed so that you didn't have to periodically log on and make a minor edit and instead could apply for a exemption on the grounds of a number of things that it is common sense to grant an exemption for. Having to periodically e-mail staff kind of defeats the whole point. Additionally a large number of complaints against ShoutWiki describe e-mails being lost in transit. I don't want that to start happening here. ~ El Komodos Drago (talk to me) 13:09, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 1)  As above Figurehigh (talk) 08:17, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  LegoMaster (talk Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 11:30, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 3)  Indeed. The whole point of exemptions is that unusual cases happen, and should be processed differently. Periodically reviewing the list could make sense, but not making the mechanism itself half-assed. Besides, removal of permanent exemption would de facto amount to: insist on an arbitrary easy-to-circumvent minor obstacle (or, require a needlessly complicated keepalive signal, with useless growing logs as the only real effect) and pretend things are not what they were. Which would be a pointless hassle and waste of resources. --TBeholder (talk) 19:18, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 4)  per above. &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

d) Comments

 * I manage Rfobasic wiki, an incomplete manual for an Android APK whose original authors have walked away from it. It was fun but further development will wait until someone asks for it, which might be never.  Even so, what's there is useful for reference.  I currently enjoy an exemption from Dormancy.  If stewards contacted me annually or less often to check, that wouldn't be burdensome.  I don't know what the right interval is.   19:56 3-May-2019

A problem I see with all the other options is that a bureaucrat is needed to keep the exemption but it's perfectly possible for a wiki to have no active bureaucrats. What happens if there's still users interested in keeping the wiki online but they're just regular users?--Wedhro (talk) 21:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * That is a good point, you are free to make new proposals or as in this case if you feel like one part of the proposal is not good, you can make an amendment to it that addresses that part. Also, if there is community consensus (or a demonstration that there is only one user active on a wiki) bureaucrat can be easily granted by a Steward if it is requested. Reception123 (talk) ('C' ) 04:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

How does one request an exemption anyway? Maybe you should add a link somewhere in the warning in case someone wants to apply for one? Sir Intellegence (talk) 21:11, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 2

 * Exemptions are no longer infinite, and will expire after a time period of 1 year starting with when the exemption was requested. After this time period, bureaucrats of a wiki are contacted by sysadmins, and they have a chance to renew their exemption. If they do not respond to the request in 30 days after the message by sysadmins, the wiki is removed from the exemption list and will be normally affected by the Dormancy Policy starting when the exemption is removed.

a) Support

 * 1)  Averak (talk) 17:58, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

b) Oppose

 * 1)  Some wikis, per the discretion of Brent Laabs (User:Labster), who is the co-founder of AllTheTropes, manages donations to that wiki to keep it running and it already has a lot of users from a lot of countries, and they do not know Miraheze Dormancy Policy (some of the users ave not seen the wiki farm's meta wiki. So supporting this section will let that wiki be in big trouble. So I  LegoMaster (talk Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 01:59, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You oppose time limited exemptions from a policy on the basis of large active wikis suffering from something they'll never use, need, request or ever fall foul of? John (talk) 04:25, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Exactly, so ATT will keep running even there is inactivity. LegoMaster (talk Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 10:07, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 1)  &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 3

 * Exemptions are no longer infinite, and will expire after a time period of 2 years starting with when the exemption was requested. After this time period, bureaucrats of a wiki are contacted by sysadmins, and they have a chance to renew their exemption. If they do not respond to the request in 30 days after the message by sysadmins, the wiki is removed from the exemption list and will be normally affected by the Dormancy Policy starting when the exemption is removed.

a) Support

 * 1)  Having to renew the exemptions assures that the wiki is still needed by bureaucrats, rather than allowing anyone to request exemptions and then never need their wiki again. Reception123  (talk) ('C' ) 17:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

b) Oppose

 * 1)  Some wikis, per the discretion of Brent Laabs (User:Labster), who is the co-founder of AllTheTropes, manages donations to that wiki to keep it running and it already has a lot of users from a lot of countries, and they do not know Miraheze Dormancy Policy (some of the users ave not seen the wiki farm's meta wiki. So supporting this section will let that wiki be in big trouble. So I  LegoMaster (talk - contribs - Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 03:41, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You oppose time limited exemptions from a policy on the basis of large active wikis suffering from something they'll never use, need, request or ever fall foul of? John (talk) 04:25, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 1)  &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 1)  &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 4

 * Exemptions are no longer infinite, and will expire after a time period of 3 years starting with when the exemption was requested. After this time period, bureaucrats of a wiki are contacted by sysadmins, and they have a chance to renew their exemption. If they do not respond to the request in 60 days after the message by sysadmins, the wiki is removed from the exemption list and will be normally affected by the Dormancy Policy starting when the exemption is removed.

a) Support

 * 1)  --Fritigern (talk) 21:13, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)   Second choice since three years is an awfully long time to be inactive (exemptions included). &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Moved from abstain because this more closely matches my opinion. &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:55, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 1)  I like this idea, however I do understand the concerns regarding the 'grace period'. 60 days seems enough, provided that multiple reminders are sent. Southparkfan (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

b) Oppose

 * 1)  Some wikis, per the discretion of Brent Laabs (User:Labster), who is the co-founder of AllTheTropes, manages donations to that wiki to keep it running and it already has a lot of users from a lot of countries, and they do not know Miraheze Dormancy Policy (some of the users ave not seen the wiki farm's meta wiki. So supporting this section will let that wiki be in big trouble. So I  LegoMaster (talk - contribs - Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 03:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You oppose time limited exemptions from a policy on the basis of large active wikis suffering from something they'll never use, need, request or ever fall foul of? John (talk) 04:26, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 1

 * A wiki will be eligible under the adoption policy 7 days after it has been closed.

a) Support

 * 1) More votes on the section below. LegoMaster (talk - contribs - Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 03:43, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

c) Abstain

 * 1)  &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  No preference between 7 or 14 days. Southparkfan (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 2

 * A wiki will be eligible under the adoption policy 14 days after it has been closed.

a) Support

 * 1)  Reception123  (talk) ('C' ) 17:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  --Wedhro (talk) 19:43, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

c) Abstain

 * 1)  &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  No preference between 7 or 14 days. Southparkfan (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 3

 * The user requesting adoption must have shown activity on the wiki prior to it's closure.

b) Oppose

 * 1)  This is effectively just a blocker for anyone who just found the newly-closed wiki and would like to edit. I don't think we should have such restrictions. --  Void  Whispers 02:06, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  Per the comment above. LegoMaster (talk - contribs - Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 03:44, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 3)  per above. &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 4)  Southparkfan (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 4

 * The user requesting adoption must have shown activity on another Miraheze wiki.

a) Support

 * 1)  This rule will ensure that the wiki would be in the hands of someone who at least knows how to edit articles. --Fritigern (talk) 21:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  Per the comment above. LegoMaster (talk - contribs - Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 03:44, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 3)  if the wording is changed from "another" to "a". Otherwise it will block people who are familiar with the wiki but does not edit elsewhere. ~ El Komodos Drago (talk to me) 10:12, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

b) Oppose

 * 1)  I fail to see a distinction between proposal 3 and 4. This is not a very popular site. &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm supporting this on the grounds that editing your user page on meta will qualify. Am I wrong? ~ El Komodos Drago (talk to me) 08:10, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

c) Abstain

 * 1)  Southparkfan (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 5

 * Staying inline with Miraheze's community centric purpose, adoption is solely the request for a wiki to be re-opened by anyone not holding "managewiki" locally on the wiki. Users must submit a local request to gain permissions which will be handled by a steward in line with standard practise (applying this pages' notes criteria).

a) Support

 * 1)  Reception123  (talk) ('C' ) 17:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  --Wedhro (talk) 20:56, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 3)  I actually think that wiki adoption needs the adopter to have rights (including autoconfirmed or extended-confirmed) on this meta wiki. LegoMaster (talk Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 11:32, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

b) Oppose

 * 1)  I don't what this adds besides more hoops and less flexibility. &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

d) Comments
I don't see why anyone can open a wiki and automatically get bureaucrat/sysop status, no questions asked, but if someone adopts a dead wiki he has to get steward's approval. --Wedhro (talk) 19:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Well, because a dead wiki has content, albeit no active users. It is fine that stewards generally defer to the wiki's community, but in the case that there is none, there is no reason for stewards not to approve.


 * Should it be stated that stewards take a snapshot of the wiki before handing it over, in case the old-timers reappear and agree that the new bureaucrat has made a mess of things?  20:00 3-May-2019


 * To me it looks like this should be handled case-by-case because there's also wikis with little to no content, so not giving away right automatically it's the closest option.--Wedhro (talk) 20:55, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Not sure how I feel about this, as in a situation where the user requesting adoption is the only user who has edited the wiki in the time since it was opened, it may prohibit them from being able to have a successful request. Barring, of course, handling requests by steward discretion instead of number of votes. -- Void  Whispers 02:11, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 6

 * Upon adoption, users will be given sysop and bureaucrat rights on the wiki by a Steward.

a) Support

 * 1)  When a user adopts a wiki, they should have the same rights on that wiki as when they had requested and been granted a wiki. --Fritigern (talk) 21:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  Making requests (even if they are simple) can be a daunting task, especially for relatively new users. ~ El Komodos Drago (talk to me) 10:16, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 3)  This really only makes sense. If no one has been active on this wiki, and no one cares about it... then why shouldn't the user who bothered requesting adoption not be given bureaucrat rights? The wiki would likely be left with no sysops, so this user is just going to have to make all the requests directly to the Stewards. Finally, since content can always be imported, I see no difference between starting a new wiki and adopting an old one. &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 4)  Per Fritigern's comment. LegoMaster (talk Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 00:32, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

b) Oppose

 * 1)  I don't think rights should given before the user really demonstrates a need for said rights, and therefore I support proposal 5 for that. Reception123  (talk) ('C' ) 17:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  As Reception123 has said above. &#32;  Miraheze Logo.svg CnocBride | Talk | Contribs  13:14, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 1

 * After 6 months total following inactivity and closure notices, a wiki is marked as deleted. For 7 days following that, users have the chance to reinstate their wiki again by contacting sysadmins. If after that time there is no request, the wiki is eligible to be deleted by sysadmins permanently.

b) Oppose

 * 1) LegoMaster (talk Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 04:43, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2) In favor of Proposal 2 below. &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 2

 * After 6 months total following inactivity and closure notices, a wiki is marked as deleted. For 14 days following that, users have the chance to reinstate their wiki again by contacting sysadmins. If after that time there is no request, the wiki is eligible to be deleted by sysadmins permanently.

a) Support

 * 1)  Reception123  (talk) ('C' ) 17:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  --Wedhro (talk) 19:38, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 3)  IMO, after 6 months of notices, 14 days is a much more realistic time period before final deletion --Fritigern (talk) 21:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 4)  I concur with the above statement. ~ El Komodos Drago (talk to me) 13:05, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 5)  14 days is more reasonable than 7 days because people's real life schedules can interfere with their ability to edit. Of course, 14 days isn't ideal for everyone as there are people who do disappear for weeks at a time. However, I understand, with the current state of affairs, why Miraheze would at least want to cull wikis that have clearly died to save on server resources. — k6ka  🍁 ( Talk  ·  Contributions ) 13:17, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 6)  Sure, why not? &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 7)  Southparkfan (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 8)  I have changed from oppose to support after reading the whole sentence above. LegoMaster (talk Account information: [ block log] – contribs – logs – [ abuse log] – CentralAuth ) 00:28, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

d) Comments
I have no divine wisdom to support 14 days and oppose 7 days, especially as this is a waiting period at the end of a waiting period (which sounds like what I went through to change my user name).

I presume a "closed wiki" is one that is still on-line but has been rendered un-retrievable, while a "deleted wiki" is one that is physically deleted (or precisely, according to Dormancy Policy, deleted at stewards' option, such as whenever they need the space). Is there a way to save the information for eventual recovery (like "writing it to the mag-tapes")?

Shouldn't Dormancy Policy mention that an RfC on it is active? 20:07 3-May-2019
 * A closed wiki is one which remains online but is not changeable except by those with "managewiki" permissions. A wiki "marked as deleted" is a wiki which appears as to not exist (produces a 404). A deleted wiki is one where the live copy is gone but information may or may not exist in backups. There is a way to store data but as an open source, donation funded project - we have no gains from storing the data, nor realistically the want to invest money in long term data storage when we are constantly fighting for funds to sustain live data storage. John (talk) 20:19, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Would it be possible to email a zipped data dump to the bureaucrat? I guess this is size dependent... Figurehigh (talk) 08:28, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Bureaucrats can always have a data dump themselves by going to Special:DataDump on their wikis, but if the wiki were to be deleted before that we do keep backups of wikis so that would be possible (and has already been done). Reception123 (talk) ('C' ) 09:56, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Archiveteam
I don't know much about the relationship between Miraheze and Archiveteam, but I wonder if there is an option of sorts for wikis that are about to be deleted to be archived into the Wayback Machine by the Archiveteam, either by bots or by dedicated volunteers? Wikis that contain no content whatsoever (which I'm guessing are the primary reasons why this policy exists in the first place—to get rid of wikis that are created and abandoned soon after creation) probably don't need to be archived, but for wikis with more substantial content, there might be a benefit to at least having its contents archived into the Internet Archive prior to deletion, so that not all is lost in case the community returns and wants to revive it. — k6ka  🍁 ( Talk ·  Contributions ) 13:27, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * From a system administrator view, I would be in favor for this, and wouldn't mind providing my assistance to be sure archives are created and uploaded before we permanently delete a wiki, but ideally this would be done by providing ArchiveTeam with dumps created server-side and not by ArchiveTeam scraping all articles and thus overloading our servers. Southparkfan (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)