Meta:Administrators' noticeboard

== Seeking permanent, and updated, community consensus for the "Edit warring" thread at User talk:Naleksuh per this thread ==


 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
 * This RfC provides that a user should be free to control their talk page archiving however they wish to - as such given no overriding consensus exists in this discussion either, this proposal is closed as invalid and no-consensus. John (talk) 20:11, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

In this thread at Administrators' noticeboard, a significant majority of the participants either explicitly or implicitly agreed that my compromise solution to the "Edit warring" thread at User talk:Naleksuh was a good one, with some, including Raidarr and Agent Isai, noting they strongly supported it. John had been unaware of that thread, when authorizing Naleksuh to remove the thread, so in my discussions with him on IRC, he encouraged me to advise Naleksuh to move forward with that outcome, and to warn Naleksuh if he did not. As Naleksuh already reverted the thread, I told John that I don't feel it would be appropriate for me to arbitrarily remove the thread a further time.

As such, I'm seeking updated guidance from the community on their preferred outcome here:

-- Dmehus (talk) 00:38, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Proposal 1: Archive thread using one of the methods w:simple:Help:Archiving a talk page
Rationale: Miraheze's infrastructure does not support the web-based tools that Wikimedia users, which means edit summary searches are not available. Given the pattern exhibited, it holds that the diffs should be readily accessible

The page would then be eligible for removal automatically after approximately 3-6 months with zero continuation of the behaviour, or upon seeking further consensus (if earlier).

Support

 * 1) Completely responsible methods of archiving a page which would both allow for easy searching in order to cite something at a later date. I would also partially concur with Nale in that this should also be extended to all user talk pages but that's a matter for another day via an RfC.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 02:40, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * No, it is not a matter for another day. Especially if that other day were to never occur. This RfC seeks to ignore the rules of OWNTALK and mandate archiving just for one talk page. Also, did you call me Nale specifically because I asked someone else not to? Is this some deliberate attempt at going around that? Naleksuh (talk) 02:44, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * With regard to your latter point, we have, on occasion, been a bit inconsistent in enforcing this practice, so this is something I personally definitely aim to improve upon. Dmehus (talk) 02:46, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 1)  per my numerous previous comments. The result of this whole argument shouldn't be to simply allow the warning to disappear from the talk page. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 04:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  per above and per my rationale as the proposer. I don't think it's appropriate in this case to simply allow the warning to disappear into complete obscurity, due, primarily, to the lack of availability of edit summary search tools on Miraheze when a substantial majority of participants in the March 2022 March administrators' noticeboard discussion endorsed the proposed compromise solution. As well, Naleksuh even supported it himself, so the unexplained about-face is curious. As to the incident from today, I do prefer archiving as well, but am less concerned with this one and would be okay with that not being restored and archived my comments elsewhere. Dmehus (talk) 05:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, I "supported" (not really) proposal 2, which says archives can be added via links to Special:PageHistory, as is currently being done here. Don't claim I supported things that I didn't. Naleksuh (talk) 05:45, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 1)  per above. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 14:54, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  Nothing bad about this one. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 14:58, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) There is no need to mandate archiving, especially not just over all talk pages but for this one thread only. I don't even think this is something that one RfC can do. Either there should be consensus for the way ALL talk pages are, or none at all (I'd lean towards the latter, but either is better than enforcing this on one talk page only). There's also no need advanced for this, as explained by John: At this point, with how much it’s been discussed and rehashed, the warning is pretty much imprinted on every administrators head here Naleksuh (talk) 01:53, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) If this was a general Miraheze wide proposal, I’d consider supporting, but I can’t support the community directly targeting and enforcing an archive method on one specific users talk page against their will, when that’s not against Miraheze’s policy. I feel we are spending an absurd amount of time trying to enforce a standard on one specific user which is draconian and borderline becoming harassment. There is also an ongoing RfC seeking to address this going forward - I advise we leave the past in the past and move forward, rather than seeking constantly bring up the past. It hasn’t worked so far and has only escalated this entire situation unnecessarily, it is counter productive to the health of Miraheze and achieves nothing. John (talk) 06:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 3)  As indicated by my comments above I think it is time to leave this particular instance behind us which as John mentions has taken up so much time. Even if I completely disagree with its ultimate removal I do not think we must spending time on this specific instance and think we should focus on approving the the general proposal to prevent these situations from reoccurring by prohibiting this behavior in the future. --DeeM28 (talk) 17:33, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 4) An unwritten convention does not constitute policy. Furthermore, there should be few, if any, unwritten rules/conventions whose violation may result in administrative sanctions. In fact, I dare say there should be none. Indeed, there is precedence that nobody&mdash;not administrators, not stewards, and not even the community itself&mdash;should act in absence of policy, and that the establishment of any such policy does not allow for that policy to be retroactively applied to past events. --  Void  Whispers 18:55, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Proposal 2: Add a permanent link to the top of User talk:Naleksuh indicating something to the effect of "Archive"
Rationale: Miraheze's infrastructure does not support the web-based tools that Wikimedia users, which means edit summary searches are not available. Given the pattern exhibited, it holds that the diffs should be readily accessible

The page would then be eligible for removal automatically after approximately 3-6 months with zero continuation of the behaviour, or upon seeking further consensus (if earlier).

Support

 * 1) only if proposal 1 fails. I would prefer proposal 1's methods which also allow for creating subpages but this would work fine too.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 02:40, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  Conditional, if Proposal 1 fails. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 04:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 3)  as a solid second choice to Proposal 1. Dmehus (talk) 05:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 4)  per above. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 14:54, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) Per above Naleksuh (talk) 01:53, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) If this was a general Miraheze wide proposal, I’d consider supporting, but I can’t support the community directly targeting and enforcing an archive method on one specific users talk page against their will, when that’s not against Miraheze’s policy. I feel we are spending an absurd amount of time trying to enforce a standard on one specific user which is draconian and borderline becoming harassment. There is also an ongoing RfC seeking to address this going forward - I advise we leave the past in the past and move forward, rather than seeking constantly bring up the past. It hasn’t worked so far and has only escalated this entire situation unnecessarily, it is counter productive to the health of Miraheze and achieves nothing. John (talk) 06:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, no. Actually, we do enforce this on many users, as evidenced by Meta administrators' and patrollers' contributions to  namespace. As I said above, we have all been somewhat inconsistent in not applying it fairly in all cases, and that's something I personally aim to correct, and assume others plan to do the same. Dmehus (talk) 06:41, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If it is enforced and backed up, why isn’t it policy and why are we discussing whether we should do it on one user specifically? John (talk) 07:27, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * So lets do the correction now and make it a matter of standard practice and not an individual's RfC, which is simultaneously unusually strong to do on one person and among the weakest options right now to set platform precedence. --Raidarr (talk) 08:23, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In reply to the question of why it is not policy I point out that it is difficult to have a written policy for everything that is done and that Meta has at least for the short time I have been here functioned with unwritten rules and conventions that are generally not seen as not contentious. DeeM28 (talk) 17:34, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Per John; a community-maintained archive, seemingly only for Nale very much seems to be targeted. As such, I . -- Cheers, Justin Aves (talk • contribs • global • rights) 14:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  John has a point here, I'm afraid. What kind of sense would that make anyway? --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 14:59, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 3) An unwritten convention does not constitute policy. Furthermore, there should be few, if any, unwritten rules/conventions whose violation may result in administrative sanctions. In fact, I dare say there should be none. Indeed, there is precedence that nobody&mdash;not administrators, not stewards, and not even the community itself&mdash;should act in absence of policy, and that the establishment of any such policy does not allow for that policy to be retroactively applied to past events. --  Void  Whispers 18:55, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Proposal 3: Create a community-maintained archive page in namespace
Rationale: Miraheze's infrastructure does not support the web-based tools that Wikimedia users, which means edit summary searches are not available. Given the pattern exhibited, it holds that the diffs should be readily accessible

The page would then be eligible for deletion automatically after approximately 3-6 months with zero continuation of the behaviour, or upon seeking further consensus (if earlier).

Support

 * 1) I'm in support of this out of all presented options. If we have formal warnings yet respect user's liberties over their talk pages, then the local administration should maintain an archive somewhere for its reference and I would like to respect user liberties as far as intermittently clearing their page and not having to have formal 'you've been a bad boy' messages stick, or to mandate a particular way of how talk page management should be done be it automatic archiving or leaving it to page history. However, if we do have these formal warnings we need to take them a step further - as they can be formally given, they should be able to be formally appealed, and thus struck or invalidated from the record or made a matter of at least partial (admin/community) consensus especially if the user strongly disagrees with the warning. Without that second aspect, this along with above options will present an incomplete system. Along with this the voting process is hyper-specific - what is set into place should be a matter of precedence for how Meta administration works, consistently applied to future cases. If anything this matter could have/should have been resolved/addressed by proxy of the broader Meta RfC. --Raidarr (talk) 02:45, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I could consider supporting this. But one question arises. How would you determine which are valid and which are invalid? People said my warning towards MacFan4000 was invalid because "oh, how you can and can't use rollback is only a guideline and not a policy so you can just rollback whatever you want", yet claimed Reception123's warning was valid just because they were a sysop, even though the claims made not only were not policy nor guideline, but directly went against them. How can we determine which warnings are valid and which are not, and do so in an unbiased and fair way via the merits of the text and not the poster's usergroups? Naleksuh (talk) 02:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Validity in my book comes from having a challenge system, be it a few admins as reviewers (in the same way a block is reviewed) and/or community input if the warning was improper, and the result of that stands as a block would. Needless to say there were an awful lot of procedural errors today that we're going to have to work on for the consensus of admins to be of reassurance and the process should be at the very least publicly visible. --Raidarr (talk) 03:07, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 1)  Conditional, only if Proposal 1 fails. I feel it's much simpler to have user-archival than this method. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 04:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  as a solid third choice should Proposals 1 and 2 fail. Dmehus (talk) 05:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Hmmmm, I think this proposal here is trying WAY too hard to sound like Wikimedia, but meh. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 00:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) This sounds like a page ONLY for Naleksuh, not a general system? If this is the case, it’s wholly inappropriate and would require justification why this entire process is being carried out for one user and not every user otherwise it wouldn’t be hard to argue given the history, it can be construed easily as harassment? John (talk) 06:32, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 3)  Per above -- Cheers, Justin Aves (talk • contribs • global • rights) 14:20, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 4)  In accordance with my vote in the first proposal I believe that this issue has become too big for what it really is and that this proposal is much too bureaucratic and unnecessary. I understand that some users have supported due to their frustrations with Naleksuh refusing to follow rules and administrator indications but nonetheless I do not think that this is an sound way to move forward. --DeeM28 (talk) 17:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 5) In addition to the comments I have made above, I believe this proposal would be a misuse of the project space to shame a single user who has acted outside a policy that does not exist yet. I would not be opposed to a discussion on improving the system overall (such as having something like WP:EDR), but it is inappropriate to do so in this context. --  Void  Whispers 18:55, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Despite the issues with Naleksuh as of recent, I've been constantly seeing pointless quarrels between him and RhinosF1, amongst other users he's been getting into arguments with, I wouldn't oppose a gentle reminder firsthand would be feasible. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 19:03, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Neutral

 * 1)  Sounds a bit too burdensome to maintain.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 02:40, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The idea here was to create a single purpose page outside of Naleksuh's own userspace/user talk namespace, but I personally wouldn't be opposed to some sort of centralized archive page for tracking these sort of warnings. Perhaps Void-bot could even be engaged to provide for maintaining a Meta administrator warnings log. Dmehus (talk) 02:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 1)  Don't feel strongly about this one. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 14:54, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Counter proposal: current situation
Should this proposal pass explicitly by direct support, or implicitly by Proposals 1-3 failing, the previous consensus is modified, and Naleksuh's current removal of the thread stands; however, any community member may, in their discretion, archive the thread as a subpage of their own userspace, in any manner they wish.

Support

 * 1) I'm not sure that RfCs can even do things like proposing adding text to my talk page (instead, it would be part of a wider process). Either way, it's clear that there is no real problem with the way things are now, and that this RfC is not just a solution looking for a problem, but a way to take away OWNTALK access, and do so selectively (not just implicitly, but by spirit and letter). I see no convincing case for things like restoring threads or requiring boxes (though, the box solution is currently done at Project talk:Twinkle, arguably archives are better there). Naleksuh (talk) 01:31, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In terms of whether RfCs can add text to a talk page even if I would not want that to be a precedent I think the absolutist view would have to be taken that if it is the will of the community it must be done. I additionally note that if the Request for Comment that I have proposed is successful "OWNTALK" will not be in effect in any case. DeeM28 (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * if the Request for Comment that I have proposed is successful "OWNTALK" will not be in effect in any case No, if it is successful a users own talk page will not be an exemption to the edit warring policy, it won't change anything else about OWNTALK. Naleksuh (talk) 01:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Between the fact that I simply don't care (and see absolutely no reason for anybody to care really) about what one user does with their own talk page and that diffs are publicly accessible, I find absolutely no cause to resist the license to organize a user talk page however the corresponding user wishes. I think the ultimate vice for Meta has been the sense of need that it be based on Wikipedia, when the fact is that it will never be Wikipedia. This is the general rundown as I see it:
 * 2) Page edits have permanent IDs, and any user can find/view diffs as they desire. There is no compelling reason to require that they be "easily accessible". The warnings are permanently available until such a time that an administrator may hide the particular revision—another administrator action, usually with consultation among peers.
 * 3) It has become evident that user talk pages are not always the most appropriate avenue for these types of discussions. Administration and other Meta participants should utilize common forums/discussion spaces as a neutral space when or before discussions and parties get out of hand, as they have in this case.
 * 4) Meta administration have failed to lead the community in establishing conventions specific to Meta (I am aware of the current RfC), leading to conflicts in ideals, differing perceptions, and inappropriate exercise of power.
 * Overall, this reads like a case of poor decision making from administrators, and inflated ego from all sides. I don't believe a single wrong was admitted through this entire event. It would do everybody some good to collaborate on what went wrong, trying to reach a resolution instead of incessant bickering. dross  (t • c • g) 19:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  per my arguments in proposals 1-3. Dmehus (talk) 05:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  per above. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 14:54, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 3) Procedurally, I think it is inappropriate to have a proposal that encourages others to archive a discussion from one talk page into their own user space. While any user can do such things (I suppose, unless we create policy to the contrary), the proper status quo is simply that the threads are permitted to be removed and the convention for forcibly retaining warnings is not to be enforced unless established policy. --  Void  Whispers 18:55, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I have yet to see such policy exist for this wikifarm, but I don't suppose we all have some backwork left to tidy up (y'know, tightening any loose ends that we may have at the moment). --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 19:03, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Neutral

 * 1)  Naleksuh annoys not only me, but multiple users down the line. I think Nale should probably take some time off of Miraheze to cool down. What I wrote on one of the above threads should be self-explanatory. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 00:54, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * How many times have I asked you not to call me Nale? It's ironic that you say I am annoying you yet you do these behaviors that annoy me. Naleksuh (talk) 01:31, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You actually never told me to not call you that at all. And way to use that ironic comeback against me, given the exact aggression in your response to me. DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 01:33, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, well, please stop then. Naleksuh (talk) 01:46, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Very well then. I suppose there's no reason for me to continue this silly feud. DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 02:07, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * While being offended by 'Nale' as a common and intuitive shorthand sounds patiently like an overreaction, this voting process does not need to be inundated with personal references about how particular users annoy each other and voting reasons should pertain to the actual topic as well as the precedence that this vote will be setting as a matter of hard convention/policy. --Raidarr (talk) 02:39, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * For some history, people have been calling me that on other websites since 2017 and it's annoyed me every time, I have tried politely asking people to stop, have tried asking less politely, never stops. Some people even call me that specifically because I have asked people not to. And now the whole thing just gets on my nerves completely. If you are not familiar with the history it may seem like an overreaction but in truth it is not; I am simply a person who has had enough. Naleksuh (talk) 02:47, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware other users, on other wikis, called you 'Nale'. I thought it was a recent Miraheze creation. I personally don't have a problem with users assigning me nicknames. I think it's generally a term of endearment in many respects. That being said, there is one nickname I personally don't like, which I won't repeat here, so if this is the one nickname you personally strongly object to, I think it's reasonable for users to respect that wish. Dmehus (talk) 02:54, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hence the reason why I stopped. DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 10:13, 16 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section

Block Removal Request
Hello, awhile back, I had self-requested a block here for my main account, ApexAgunomu, but now I would like that block to be removed. I think I can be responsible here on Meta and not do dumb things. Thanks! ApexTest (talk) 05:54, 22 May 2022 (UTC) https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ApexAgunomu


 * While I would be happy to oblige, I would like to enquire about a few edits. For example, this one where you inserted the category “Hello” in Extensions along with your recent creation of 2 blank talk pages. What is up with that? Agent Isai  Talk to me! 06:01, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Those were silly little test edits, which I will also avoid in the future. Also, the main reason I'm asking for this right now is because I want to clean up my global.css page for my ApexAgunomu account (like remove the note at the top so it will work properly). ApexTest (talk) 13:04, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, just wondering if there's any way my main account can be unblocked here so I can fix my css page. Thank you. ApexTest (talk) 00:59, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * ApexTest, I would not recommend this and, indeed, was just about to match your main account's self-requested until I saw this request. Per discussions I've had with Reception123 and Agent Isai on IRC, I'm about to unblock you on Public Test Wiki, with further, firmer guidance and a stronger abuse filter adapted by Chrs, so I think this is where you focus should be. Dmehus (talk) 04:46, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay. I will work there for now. Thank you for unblocking me there and the reply here. ApexTest (talk) 06:23, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Requesting the rights
Hello. Would it be possible to have my translation admin and patroller rights back? I am interested in volunteering again. Thanks. Startus (talk) 11:00, 23 May 2022 (UTC)


 * ✅. I trust you remember the patroller and translation administrator guidelines so thus I will not link them. Either way, welcome back! Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:23, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Agent. Yeah, I remember the guidelines :) Startus (talk) 14:30, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Need help with this edit
Hey, I'm trying to publish the H:PF redirect for the Help:ParserFunctions page which I've recently created for this wiki. But unfortunately one of the Abuse filters is preventing me from publishing it. ― C.Syde (talk  | contribs ) 07:40, 31 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I have tried to create the page and yet, it prevents me to create the redirect too. Since the abuse filter is set as private that only meta administrators can view it, I am pinging Agent Isai here, an active sysop here. Cheers, Matttest (talk) 09:20, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You don't seem to be a member of any groups that I'm not a member of. So if I can't create the redirect, I wouldn't expect you to be able to either. ― C.Syde (talk  | contribs ) 10:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The AbuseFilter limits this to sysops/autopatrolled users. It is not designed to consider Stewards either and is something to perhaps consider as an update. --Raidarr (talk) 13:20, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * So could the redirect that I was trying to create be created? ― C.Syde (talk  | contribs ) 14:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It is to be assumed that all Stewards are autopatrolled as that demonstrates trustworthiness from Meta sysops and evidently, Stewards are trusted. I don't see a valid use case for exemptions for the local Stewards group in light of this. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 19:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Why do you want to create this page? Agent Isai  Talk to me! 19:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The answer is in the abuse log. Because other pages redirecting to other sites also have shortcuts like that. It's not consistent otherwise. ― C.Syde (talk  | contribs ) 21:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Patroller request for Matttest
Hello, I would like to volunteer to be a patroller on Meta Wiki. My active wikis are Public Test Wiki (some of them are tests but also helping users in the community portal, giving them reminders), some wikis in the Chinese language as mentioned in my userpage, and meta is one of the active wikis I am in. As of recent weeks, I have been active patrolling the noticeboards, reviewing edits (such as adding the template when a user haven’t signed their messages) and new pages at both Special:RecentChanges and Special:NewPages. By becoming a patroller, I will be able to help on marking pages as patrolled and thus lower the burden of other administrators who have a lot to do. I am looking forward for any questions or concerns, thank you for your consideration. --Matttest (talk) 07:53, 1 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you for volunteering. While reviewing your edits, I found that the bulk of your recent edits focus more on your ongoing feud on . I would feel more comfortable granting the right if I saw further evidence of activity on Meta other than relating to your ongoing issue on the aforementioned wiki. As such, I am marking as not done for now. I would suggest you continue to volunteer on Meta and also that you review Patrollers and the guidelines for patrollers. Thanks!  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 08:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC) (P.S. I saw your user page and I would disagree with the claim that Matomo is spying on you)
 * Yet, some of them is indeed, relating the the unbooks’ dispute, which makes the my edits of meta related activities to be not obvious and probably not enough. Anyway, I will keep my activities in meta and be more active in patrolling noticeboards before I request the right here again. Thanks. (P.S. From my point of view, matomo is analyzing user’s behavior without a reason - I can’t understand why matomo needs to log social networks, resolution, etc.). Cheers, Matttest (talk) 09:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)