Requests for Comment/Changes to wiki creators (2)

Taking into account concerns and suggestions expressed in the previous wiki creators RfC I've decided to propose a new RfC to take into account that feedback. While initially somewhat opposed to the idea of direct revocation, given recent events I've changed my mind and think that Stewards have trouble determining when a situation is 'bad enough' to revoke a wiki creator so it's best to give it more legitimacy by a community vote. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 11:01, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 1: Appointment
To be appointed Wiki Creator, a request needs to be made at Requests for permissions. The community can discuss (support/oppose/abstain/comment) the request. The request will be considered successful if:
 * at least 5 users share their view
 * there is a support ratio of at least 80%
 * a period of one week has passed since it started

Support

 * 1)  In order to have a revocation system we also need an appointment system. The requirements are in line with other roles. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 11:01, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  1.1 passes. Globe - (Talk • Contributions • CA) 11:36, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 3)  Community revocation is very much needed and an 80% support ratio to match all other groups is best.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Consistency is needed, especially for a right that has rights that can affect the wiki farm (in both stability and reputation). --  Bukkit  [ cetacean needed ] 18:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 5)  --Imamy (talk) 00:08, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  80% is too high of a ratio for a group with such a limited scope and whose only purpose is to create wikis. Since wiki creators have less permissions and responsibilities than Stewards or Global Sysops, it makes sense to have a lower support ratio, since there is less risk involved; 70% should be enough. Tali64³ (talk) 11:23, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand your reasoning but the lower number of participants required does reflect that. In this RfC the community agreed that it's better to have the same support ratio required for all groups rather than have scattered support ratios which are confusing. I don't think it'd be a good idea to reverse that and start having different ratios again. --Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 11:52, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Global interwiki administrator has an 80% support ratio, as does Global rollbacker which are arguably even less powerful or important than wiki creator. We shouldn't treat wiki creator as a lesser role when it's a very important role. Having a unified support ratio and standard across all 'global' (wiki creator is certainly a global role in a sense) would be best and would make more sense instead of differing ratios because of perceived lack of importance or powerfulness. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:17, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 1.1: Lower appointment ratio
To be appointed a wiki creator, a 70% support ratio is required instead of 80%.

Support

 * 1)  as proposer. Tali64³ (talk) 11:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) . Globe - (Talk • Contributions • CA) 11:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  Per my reply to Tali above. Different ratios for different groups are confusing and the justification (and difference) is minimal. Wiki creator might be a single task position but that doesn't mean it should be easier to get it if there are concerns and users who oppose. --Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 11:54, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  There is no reason to keep treating this group as a "protected" group. All other groups are subject to an 80% support ratio, even Global interwiki administrator which is arguably even less powerful and powerful than wiki creator. If all is well in a request then the requester shouldn't have to be hoping for a lower support ratio than 80%. If they have less than that then clearly there are issues which should impede a request until solved.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:12, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * In that case, there should be a 70% support ratio for all lower-level groups (wiki creator, global rollbacker, etc.), since there are less advanced permissions involved, which means a lesser risk of things going horribly wrong. Groups with more advanced permissions (Global Sysops, Stewards, etc.) should remain at 80%, as it's very easy to mess things up if used incorrectly. Tali64³ (talk) 12:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * They all represent Miraheze so no, the level of trust in them must be high. There's zero reason why they should be unable to fulfil an 80% support ratio when they represent us globally to users as 'staff' members before the eyes of many. Misconduct on their part reflects badly on all of us and accordingly, the trust in them to be competent, have judgement, and to not mess up, must be high as no one wants to be cleaning up their messes. Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If the support ratio required for a successful request reflects the level of trust put in that role, then Stewards and Global Sysops should arguably have an even higher support ratio than 80%(90% and 85%, respectively). While trust is an important factor in determining the necessary support ratio, it's not the only factor. Things like the responsibilities that come with the role, the ease of reverting any change made by someone in that role if it turns out to be incorrect, etc. also count. Any invalid wikis created by wiki creators can easily be closed/deleted by Stewards, and wiki creators can be removed if they repeatedly create such wikis. There is a medium amount of trust in the role and mistakes can be reverted somewhat easily, so the support ratio should be around 70%. Stewards, on the other hand, have a very high level of trust, and anything that Stewards mess up can stick for months or even years. Therefore, I agree with the 80% support ratio. Having 80% for all roles is too strict and will inhibit users who want to help, but are put off by the high support ratio required. Tali64³ (talk) 12:58, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The support ratio for both roles is 80% and not higher because it is recognized that there is an inherently implicit inability by any candidate to please all sides, along with the coupling with an extraordinarily high numerical requirement of voters for the former (and partially also for the latter) role. Stewards can't monitor Meta 24/7 and check one by one multiple wiki requests to see whether or not a wiki creator has done well. Many wikis have slipped through unnoticed for months at a time until random users report these to us. Unless a wiki creator very badly messes up and a Steward sees it, Stewards let wikis be as it is convention to not delete wikis outright (of course, provided that the wiki isn't violating policy) even if their approval is rather iffy. I don't see why wiki creator should be treated to any less scrutiny than other roles. My request for wiki creator passed unanimously and if any candidate with competency and judgement ever applies, I'm sure they'll also pass unanimously. We need not to cater and pander to those who can barely muster up these requirements. If they can't be trusted by the wide association of users on Meta then it may be for a reason. Now, it should be up to the closing Steward whether or not certain votes should count when their rationale is evidently weak. For example, on RfCs and such, we typically weigh votes that just say "per above" or just use a voting template as less than one that clearly argues their point. Discretion in requests overall should be afforded to the closer and that I would also support.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 13:33, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * because I'm for:
 * -- having an 80 percent standard ratio for consistency
 * the scope may be limited, however the role is still meaningful and valuable and necessary.
 * the scope may be limited, however the role is still meaningful and valuable and necessary.

Proposal 2: Revocation

 * The community can initiate a vote of no confidence or a request of removal at any time. In order for it to pass it needs:
 * at least 5 users to share their view
 * a support ratio of at least 50%
 * a period of one week has passed since it started
 * at least one of the criteria in Wiki creators to be fulfilled

The vote of no confidence is in addition to the possibility for Stewards to revoke Wiki Creators.

Support

 * 1)  Per the forward, I have changed my mind on this and believe that the system is more effective if the community can directly vote. There's also the revocation criteria in place to ensure that wiki creators aren't removed arbitrarily. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 11:01, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) . Globe - (Talk • Contributions • CA) 11:40, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 3)  No objections.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:18, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 4)  --Imamy (talk) 01:01, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) Per my support of proposal 2.1. -- Bukkit  [ cetacean needed ] 18:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Just noting that Proposal 2.1 is a supplement to this proposal and cannot pass if this one doesn't. Tali64³ (talk) 19:10, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 2.1: Revocation

 * The vote of no confidence [as described in Proposal 2] is the only method of revocation and Stewards may only revoke Wiki Creators in an emergency.

Note: Opposing this proposal means that Stewards can still revoke Wiki Creators independently of a vote of no confidence

Support

 * 1) . Stewards should only revoke in emergencies, and the community should discuss on the rest. Globe - (Talk • Contributions • CA) 11:43, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Would you mind explaining why you think so? Repeating what the proposal provides isn't a very helpful argument/justification. --Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 11:55, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) I believe that stewards should only intervene when there is an "emergency" case or for a successful vote of no confidence. Stewards should not have discretion to remove rights, especially given the underlying reason why this RfC was re-proposed, if a steward does not like a user, they could call violation of VCP (or any policy) and remove the rights without an eyebrow raised. --  Bukkit  [ cetacean needed ] 18:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  I think it's important for Stewards to retain discretion and be able to revoke users if they're violating the rules set out, especially for a group with a single specific task. Reception123 (talk) ( C ) 11:01, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  Wiki creators are at the forefront of Miraheze. Them choosing whether or not to approve a wiki can have very, very drastic consequences on our future. As such, it is best to have Stewards be able to revoke the permission in case they are evidently doing a terrible job and creating wikis in violation of policy along with the other things defined in current policy.  Agent Isai  Talk to me! 12:30, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that be considered an emergency? -- Bukkit  [ cetacean needed ] 18:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 3: Different minimum requirement

 * '5 users' is replaced with '7 users' for both revocation and appointment

Oppose

 * 1) . Not many people comment on these requests, so let's not make it too high. Globe - (Talk • Contributions • CA) 11:45, 16 May 2023 (UTC)