Community noticeboard/Archive 1

Welp, not sure where to put this
So I'm throwin it here. For user rights pages (Bureaucrats, Wiki creator, rtc) we need to choose plural or singular (preferably plural imo) and stick with it. We shouldn't use singular on one page and plural on another. Also, I can see the need for Admins redirecting since its an abreviation but is there a need to have one tense of wikicreator redirect to the other?
 * I know. I just went on ListUserRights and that's why the pages got created like that.--Reception123 (talk) 01:36, 8 August 2015 (EDT)

Dormancy policy
See Stewards'_noticeboard for a discussion on the dormancy policy proposals. -- Cheers, NDKilla ( Talk • Contribs ) 19:25, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposal of a global "helper" user group
We should have a global "helper" user group for volunteers that aren't sysadmins (such as Me and ImBoPhl), that includes read permissions and whatever else is deemed useful for us. MacFan4000 (talk) 00:09, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay I agree I ready MT7 (talk) 01:40, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest cranking out a list of permissions that you think this group should need, because right now, it's a lot too vague. To be honest, there is not a lot to stop you from requesting steward if you want to (except, where to put said request). It's worth a thought though. -- Void  Whispers 02:30, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I from WMF maybe I want to help out in here. But I think not.But if you appointed me I can maybe agree. MT7 (talk) 12:23, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Frustrated with Miraheze
I am totally frustrated with Miraheze. No offense to sysadmins and developers, I think you need to be a little more open. There are hundreds of wikis that have closed, mostly due to inactivity. However, I would be willing to bet that some of those communities have moved elsewhere for a larger setup, etc. My sister and I just wanted a place to host a MW wiki with lots of options as to how it looks and runs. Believe me, I've looked just about everywhere, and pretty much all of MediaWiki's free hosts are either dead, unable to be connected to, or are running an ancient version of MediaWiki and thus significantly lack features. I have a personal GitHub repository that contains what my sister and I would like to see out of a MediaWiki host.

I find myself running into the same roadblock that our cousin, MatthewPW, ran into. My sister never imagined needing these advanced features when she came to Miraheze. However, things changed, and she (as well as I) feel that control is important. I've seen so many wiki farms go dead because they were attacked by spam or other disruptive content, and our goal was to create a wiki that had everything possible to prevent that in our hands. Know that extensions like CU or some of the others aren't things that we would necessarily want to use, but feel that having access to them is important, just in case of something bad or otherwise unforeseen happening.

I understand and respect the need for user privacy, but there just aren't too many reasonable options out there. After some research, this is what it comes down to:


 * ShoutWiki charges you $5.50 just to get rid of page-cluttering ads.
 * Referata has a free plan, but it seriously lacks features and the requests page seems to have been ignored for some time.
 * MyWikis charges you $8/mo to do anything, and $35/mo to have a fully managed site
 * Several other hosts are located on Europe or elsewhere and don't have an English version
 * A large majority of farms have been dead for several years now
 * And the list goes on.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from any why I'm so frustrated. I did also try installing MediaWiki myself. I was doing well, extracting/decompressing data & copying files, until I hit a roadblock.... "Error: No independent database detected". Great! I don't have the foggiest of a clue how to set up an independent database. BTW I tried using Bitnami Cloud Hosting on their free plan, which is "fully managed", but yet that option has absolutely NO EXTENSIONS whatsoever included, with no obvious way to add/request them. Amanda (talk) 15:20, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Paid Hosting is uasally better then free hosting as we have said before. MacFan4000 (talk) 15:29, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately it comes down to a lack of same values. Miraheze is a niche in the hosting industry in that it doesn't provide a service to a person but rather a community. Miraheze's core principles are:
 * 100% open-source code and management;
 * no ads;
 * no charges at all, ever;
 * and community centered.
 * The first 3 seem to be down your alley but the last one isn't. We're not a host you make a wiki with and get full access to manage it - we fuel communities and delegate all responsibility to communities. In the beginning, communities are definitely small so we don't demand community view for everything and different communities have their own ways of dealing with running elements which we respect.
 * We do give a lot of control to wikis, but we're community centered so the highly restrictive things are withheld from small communities and only given when the community themselves have developed a strong view they feel it is necessary to have the relevant tools - and when that happens we will work with communities to ensure delegation benefits everyone. The most notable issue surrounding this has got to be CheckUser. We're in no way holding it back. If a community of significant size presents a vote locally saying "we want access to CheckUser", we will work with the community to ensure a satisfactory resolution is met - if that means granting CheckUser locally under stipulated guidelines and policies then it will happen.
 * Stewards recently became a ratified community-handled group - it always was though there was no set in stone policy over how certain events would be handled. If someone presented a successful election as a steward, we will make them a steward. We don't hold back from communities - we do hold back from single people requesting something that doesn't block them in growing their community. Stewards are always open to handle the restrictive work on all wikis where necessary and system administrators are bound by consensus unless legal or otherwise security threats prevent it being carried out. John (talk) 15:59, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreeing with John, we have never said 'we won't delegate CheckUser' or anything even remotely similiar, but like John said you are not a community with a thought out process asking for a tool that will benefit the community. You have actually explicitly said that (you|your sister|your cousin) want complete control, and this is something we are unwilling to give you. Complete control doesn't really benefit the communities, especially not for a public wiki about Canada. You have [no] users and [no] community. We want you to grow and thrive with Miraheze but you haven't gotten a community (or attempted to?), you haven't reasonably discussed why you want/need it, etc. etc.
 * "me/my sister" doesn't constitute 'community'
 * "I want to fight spam" isn't a valid reason. You need to explain to us why Stewards doing their jobs (as defined by the community) is not enough for you. We hate spam just as much as any wiki founder, this is why we've been working to resolve issues with Captchas, and why we use such a good captcha.
 * TL;DR since you literally copy/pasted half of your argument from a Phabricator task, I'm starting to think that you, like MatthewPW will never be happy with Miraheze since we are unwilling to give you [a single user] complete control over your wiki. -- Cheers, NDKilla ( Talk • Contribs ) 16:16, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The main issue isn't the community, although that's part of it. The main issue here is that MediaWiki seems to have had so many free hosting services that did provide control of your wiki, but so many of them have gone down. I've seen a few where one or two wikis got attacked by spambots or hackers, and those two wikis were enough to kill the entire host. Also, I truly have nothing against paid hosting, I only am against the fact that the hosts I've researched, as noted in my list above, are so expensive to do anything. For a true example, look at WikiFree. This was a host that provided access to many advanced tools and extensions, but the entire site has gone down due to someone overloading the database server. Now, only an error message in Italian remains of the host. My family altogether has been fascinated with the concept of a wiki for quite some time. We even went to Wikimania one year and loved it. Our perfect paradise would be to have a wiki of which the configuration settings would be completely founder and co-founder controlled, but that the actual setup of a personal database could be eliminated. As noted above, Bitnami Cloud is the closest I've come to achieving that, however Bitnami has absolutely no extensions and therefore is useless. Amanda (talk) 17:19, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * BTW it's not my fault that I don't have a community. I do have plenty of users on my wiki, but none of them have ever attempted to contribute in a non-technical way. I also put up a tweet about WikiCanada a few days ago, which went nowhere. Amanda (talk) 17:22, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately full control is something you can't get without going fully managed. If you use a service, that service is legally responsible for ensuring the service provided obeys the relevant laws the service has to abide by. For Miraheze, we're bounded by US and Dutch law though Dutch law brings in caveats in that we're then also bound by European Law which is infamous for having extremely tough and awkward privacy laws. Even with community delegation of said rights, it's something we need to constantly monitor and at the first sign of plausible misuse would result in revocation of said rights and Miraheze looking at the impacts of misuse and coming to a reasonable conclusion which may in the end result in a ban for a user (or an entire wiki) from gaining access to said tools again. It's a very very fine line and a very risky one legally which is why we can't give out anything that can be deemed 'private' to people without a proper sense of vetting. If we were to, then the long run would mean we have to vet everyone who has the potential to gain the rights which means every user registering an account in order to protect us legally which is just not feasible. If you go hosted on your own, then you are legally responsible for your own use while with Miraheze, we are legally responsible in addition to you. John (talk) 18:16, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Having kept a curious interest in this ongoing topic, both here and on the recently archived Requests for Comment/Stewards page, I can understand why Amanda would want control of the her wiki but at the same time I can easily see the flipped of this argument as John has made some obvious points regarding the issues that come with full control. Having full control certainly brings a whole new bunch of issues. This is fine on a single, paid-for hosting package and you know how to legally and responsibly provide that service. You are in control: the problems, software testing and updates, the legalities, the whole kit and caboodle. I had a wiki for several years where I was in full control so I know what problems can come from this and believe me, having a wiki here is a whole lot better if you want all the perks of having a wiki but without all the technical and legal stuff that goes with it, which, if you don't really know you could be shooting yourself in the foot. I am nowhere near as technically savvy as the administrators and stewards, which is why am pleased they offer a service that takes care of the heavy lifting for you. They provide a service that is in the best interests for the community and this does mean there are some things you cannot do, especially when privacy is involved. I know that if I have a problem with my wiki I can ask someone about it. Yes, it might take a while for a response or to be resolved and I might not always get the answer I want but that's life. I have been knocked back a couple of times with requests but I don't take it personally. However, I can understand the frustrations of relinquishing full control to partial control. Not being able to add extensions and access to Localsettings.php was little strange at first and maybe still is. But the heavy lifting is taken care of for me and I know if there are spam/vandalism issues on my wiki I can ask for help and it will looked into and resolved, it is hoped, in a timely manner. Borderman  talk 22:24, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This is totally getting out of control. I have made my point clear that CheckUser is not the main issue here. I understand that certain MediaWiki extensions will break Miraheze and CentralAuth, and do not challenge that. However, certain extensions I have requested (for example, this one) does not involve user groups altogether, and yet have been declined. It seems like the only extensions that I can have easily are ones that are pre-installed. Even ones that don't mess with any configuration settings (example) have been acknowledged and submitted but never done ( that comment is pointed at you). In other issues, I have now had to kick NDKilla off WikiCanada after they kicked me off TestWiki. The runaway train of Stewards getting in my way never stops. (Especially after I was told that Stewards try to help communities). Amanda (talk) 14:05, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that Stewards have read globally which overwrites the local revocation. Also note that stewards have unblock self globally, so you can not fully kick out any steward. MacFan4000 (talk) 14:08, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but I also have an abuse filter to stop edits by the annoying Stewards. Also, Stewards may have the technical ability to, but smart Stewards wouldn't intentionally evade local restrictions. Amanda (talk) 14:11, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Regarding the SiteSettings extension, we have a process of handling things both technically and on a standard practise way. The time it would take to review the extension could be better placed in developing our own home-grown version that exact suits our needs and has a global back-door in to allow trusted people to aid and assist in supporting requests. Our own version also centralises config so we only have to realistically support one standard rather than ensuring n number of settings tables are secure, easily accessible and work with our system. ApprovedRevs is being reviewed, though with only one person reviewing and having a rather large backlog of existing reviews and at the same time maintaining a full time job - we can't commit to review and deploying extensions in the same day, or even same week. Regarding stewards, I note you don't have a filter to prevent edits by annoying stewards but rather all stewards currently. We also do work with communities to help them - we don't hinder them at all. The TestWiki incident to me seems valid as you unblocked users who has been blocked within local policies permanently. John (talk) 16:20, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm kind of at the end of my rope here. Amanda has attempted to ban the founders of this wiki farm from her wiki (it won't work obviously), which is a slap in the face to the people who give her stuff for free, but an OK protest I guess?  Except that we've taken all of her requests seriously so far, so I'm not sure what she's protesting other than wanting different free stuff than the free stuff we're willing to give?  And then she's trying to play staff against each other by talking to them and granting privileges to some while revoking others (it won't work obviously).  This behavior seems to be in common between MatthewPW, Amanda, and DeltaQuad -- this big sense of entitlement to free stuff on their terms.  It doesn't even matter at this point whether it's a family or a sock-drawer or false-flag operation.   We are wasting everyone's admin time on this trio for a couple months now and it needs to stop.  I've said several times nicely that I think what she wants can't be compatible with what we are willing to offer, and that it was time to leave, but the hint was not taken.  So here's what I'm doing:
 * I refuse to review ApprovedRevs. It's big, complicated, unnecessary, and requested by a wiki that will never last on Miraheze.
 * I request an IP ban for Amanda. We need to stop wasting time on a problem customer, so that we can solve problems rather than talk about problems.
 * I propose we take wikicanada offline immediately. If Amanda or DeltaQuad wants a copy of the wiki database, she can email us.  Sorry DeltaQuad -- your sister messed things up for you, I guess.
 * That about does it. Hey  if you need a technical request expedited, let me know.  Thanks for your kind words.  Labster (talk) 10:01, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, I understand. So basically, SiteSettings doesn't have technical issues, but would just duplicate another extension that is already in development? Amanda (talk) 12:29, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Well yes. And the extension at hand stores all its configuration locally, while we are planning on doing this in a central location. This would mean the migration work would be exponentially more than not bothering over the extension and would in the long run perhaps delay the deployment of our own extension even longer. This is not even considering the effort we'd need to make sure that extension works with out deployment off the bat. John (talk) 16:01, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

(Reset indent) none of that was threatening. If a system administrator thinks you are wasting or time or resources, its a valid concern that operations and/or Stewards should do something about. -- Cheers, NDKilla ( Talk • Contribs ) 14:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Saying that you are going to disable my wiki sure is threatening. Amanda (talk) 14:27, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You either misread or misunderstood what User:Labster said. He didn't say 'I am closing that wiki right now and deleting the database damnit,' he proposed that we take the website offline since he believes you are more trouble than you are worth. None of the facts or requests were 'threats' they were just things he won't do (in the case of the first bullet) or requests (in the other bullets). -- Cheers, NDKilla ( Talk • Contribs ) 16:00, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * As the co-founder of the wiki, I herby forbid the wiki from being taken offline at least until after the New Year. This gives DQ a chance to completely recover and gives her and I a chance to discuss what we want to do. Amanda (talk) 18:34, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Stewards vs. wiki founders
In the IRC logs, said: "they don't actually discuss anything they just want their way" - in response to that, now I will discuss.

The only reason that I requested steward is that I have a very high knowledge of the MediaWiki interfaces, and therefore can definitely help out the Miraheze community. I am nearing an expert level of every interface, from basic blocking to complex global account management. However, no one on this request has not allowed me to even demonstrate my abilities - instead they are just voting strong oppose over and over again. I believe the stewards should be able to be appointed just based on experience with the tools that they will have access to - no more, no less.

I also think that storing everything on a central database is causing issues. If Miraheze used one main database, but had smaller branches of said DB, none of these problems would even be an issue. The way I see it is that the reason certain highly-technical tools are restricted is because their use on a personal wiki could/would break their use on a global level. If each wiki was independent of each other, this wouldn't be an issue. --- DeltaQuad  (talk contribs email), 15:22, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Your mediawiki experience do matter, but Steward is a community role. You're asking for a sensitive tool(with the potential ability to look up other's location, etc...), so you have to show others that you're reliable not to abuse your mobs, not to make serious mistakes or problems, not to make a dispute in disrespectful manner. You have to demonstrate not only your ability, but also your reliability seen by others. &mdash; revi  18:49, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I think you're missing the point of the opposes. The main concern of most commenters is that even if your RfS is successful, sharing your account allows others to access tools only you should have access to. Also for the most part wiki databases are separate (local rights, pages, users, revisions and logs are all local) but central auth adds important functionality and links users across wikis. If wikis were completely separate there would be no global groups, and users on on each wiki wouldn't be the same name on another wiki; so impersonation would be possible. -- Cheers, NDKilla ( Talk • Contribs ) 18:53, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * As mentioned in the RFS, the stewards themselves told me to share an account. What am I supposed to do - deny my sister from editing? That's not very fair, especially considering the fact that she was the one who kept WikiCanada when it was still around up and running while I was in the hospital. --- DeltaQuad  (talk contribs email), 19:56, 5 January 2017 (UTC)